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#1 06.04.2011 02:37:56

Kapudan Emir Efendi
Гость




Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

8
*
знатная заметка!

Vsem Privet,

Menya zovut Emir Yener; ya turetskii istorik iz Stambule. Ya noviy v forume no ya v kontakte s Ted Sozaevom dlya mnogo vremya. Ya zhil v Odesse poltora godu dlya izuchat' Russkiy yazik. No, menya nado skazat' eto ochen trudniy yazik i ya kak ploho govoryu, izvinite menya. Nikak, ya budu schastliviy esli ya mogu pomogot', osobenno pro Osmanskii flot.

Vot ya otpravlyayu vam linkii ot kotorom vy mozhete dobarit' neskolko novii dissertatsii pro osmanskogo parusnogo flota, no vse po turetskii.


Yusuf Alperen Aydın's dissertation about Ottoman sailing warship technology 1700-1770: http://www.sendspace.com/file/n9ztdv

Hacer Bulgurcuoğlu's monography about the SoL Mahmudiye: http://www.sendspace.com/file/30k93o

Ilhami Danış's monography about the Ottoman naval operations during 1737-39 war: http://www.sendspace.com/file/vps8i2

Şenay Özdemir's study of an Ottoman navy logbook depicting 1775-76 Mediterranean cruise: http://www.sendspace.com/file/a35ms3

Ali Soyer's master's thesis about Chesma and Sinop battles: http://www.sendspace.com/file/b7x7kw

Besim Özcan's P.h.D dissertation about the battle of Sinop: http://www.sendspace.com/file/t828dw

Sinan Dereli's monography about the Ottoman SoL Şehbaz-ı Bahri: http://www.sendspace.com/file/sxms4w


Esli po anglisskiy pisat' nezapreshenniy v forume, ya mogu dat' svoyu informatsiyu luchshe.

#2 06.04.2011 08:52:40

Eugenio_di_Savoia
Рядовой запаса
KMS Schwere Kreuzer Prinz Eugen
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Re: Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

Kapudan Emir Efendi написал:

Оригинальное сообщение #372764
Esli po anglisskiy pisat' nezapreshenniy v forume, ya mogu dat' svoyu informatsiyu luchshe.

I think, the question will be positively solved.


Ubi Sabaudia ibi victoria

#3 06.04.2011 10:41:17

Михаил
Капитанъ II ранга
k2r
Откуда: Липецк
ТАКР "Адмирал Кузнецов"
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Re: Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

Очень рад Увидеть на нашем форуме этого , мною очень уважаемого человека Emir Yener , который мне помогал разобраться с Турецким флотом и предоставлял мне очень много интересной и ценной информации.

Огромное спасибо за интереснейший подбор книг.
Надеюсь , что Emir Yener и дальше будет на срадовать литературой и станет активным членом нашего форума !!!

#4 06.04.2011 14:38:09

Ромуальд
Гость




Re: Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

Уважаемый Emir Efendi - Вы только парусным флотом занимаетесь или и паровым тоже ? И еще вопрос - только военный или и гражданский ?
После нашей гражданской войны и увода Врангелем флота в Ваши воды в ноябре 1920 г.  много небольших судов осталось в Турции (десятка 3 -4 если даже не больше) и многие работали еще не один десяток лет. По некоторым нет данных даже в Ллойдах а хотелось бы найти их судьбу до конца.
Разумеется пишите по английски - те кому тема интересна Ваши ответы поймут.

#5 06.04.2011 17:35:35

Kapudan Emir Efendi
Гость




Re: Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

1

Vsem Druzyam Privet,

Spasibo bolshoe dlya vashey horoshii slova. Ya ne tolko parusnim folotom zanimaetesya, naprotiv ya osobenno spetsialist pro parohodniy flot, ya pisal dissertatsiya (kotorogo transformiroval kniga v 2010) pro modernizatsii osmanskom, russkom, kitayskom i yaponskom flotom v 19. veke. Kompleks analiz etih flotom. Vot moya kniga:

http://www.amazon.com/Sail-Steam-Modern … mp;sr=8-20

Grazhdanskii flot, yesli govoryu chesno, ya malo znayu no u menya est' neskolko knigii o etogo tema tozhe. No vse seichas v domu, v Stambule. Ya uviezhayu doma voskreseniyu. Kogda ya budu doma, ya budu ih posmotrit' dlya vashego vopros o korablem flotom Vrangela.

#6 06.04.2011 23:06:42

Олег
Контр-адмиралъ
k-admiral
Откуда: Москва
корабль Трех Святителей: Василия Великого, Григория Богослова, Иоанна Златоуст
Сообщений: 5898




Re: Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

Dear Emir Efendi!
Can you tell us about turkish torpedoboat Berk-Efshan class? This ships was rather big, have a good (for there time) speed, but there armament is small for the displacement. Was it turkish original project, or this ships have europian prototypes?


“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.”
Carl Schurz

#7 06.04.2011 23:52:30

Aubrey
Гость




Re: Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

Hos geldiniz, Emir Efendi! Memnum oldum.

Отредактированно Aubrey (07.04.2011 00:00:26)

#8 07.04.2011 02:00:05

Kapudan Emir Efendi
Гость




Re: Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

Hoş bulduk Aubrey ! Ben de çok memnun oldum, teşekkür ederim ! :))

Oleg, Berkefşan, together with her sistership Tayyar, was a home-built version of the german-designed Ejder. Ejder weighed 140 tons and was capable of 24 knots, while her half-sisters Berkefşan and Tayyar were 230 tons and made 21 knots. The difference of weight and performance was caused by the much lower quality of Ottoman building materials -rolled iron compared to the Ejder's steel hull- I think.

#9 07.04.2011 20:33:18

Олег
Контр-адмиралъ
k-admiral
Откуда: Москва
корабль Трех Святителей: Василия Великого, Григория Богослова, Иоанна Златоуст
Сообщений: 5898




Re: Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

Спасибо.


“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.”
Carl Schurz

#10 07.04.2011 23:06:43

Александр Клюев
Гость




Re: Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

Уважаемый Kapudan Emir Efendi!

Обладаете ли Вы информацией о турецких судах, которые погибли на Черном море 1941-1945 гг.?

Прошу прощения, английским не владею.

С уважением.

Отредактированно Евгений К (07.04.2011 23:07:32)

#11 09.04.2011 00:29:45

Олег
Контр-адмиралъ
k-admiral
Откуда: Москва
корабль Трех Святителей: Василия Великого, Григория Богослова, Иоанна Златоуст
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Re: Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

Кстати, кто-нибудь знает он-лайн переводчик с турецкого (можно на английский)?


“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.”
Carl Schurz

#12 09.04.2011 01:02:50

Aubrey
Гость




Re: Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

Олег написал:

онлайн-переводчик с турецкого

http://mrtranslate.ru/translate/turkish-russian.html

#13 09.04.2011 01:13:33

Олег
Контр-адмиралъ
k-admiral
Откуда: Москва
корабль Трех Святителей: Василия Великого, Григория Богослова, Иоанна Златоуст
Сообщений: 5898




Re: Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

Спасибо.


“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.”
Carl Schurz

#14 09.04.2011 23:13:43

Ромуальд
Гость




Re: Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

Уважаемый Emir Efendi.
Если получится что найти по русским судам оставшимся от эскадры Врангеля в Турции и позднее ходившим под флагом Вашей страны - может где  проскакивал и такой эпизод:
В начале марта 1921 г. из Батума ушли в Стамбул пароходы «Веста»,«Мария» ,«Илья Морозов» и «Амвросий», вооруженный буксир «Имеди», землечерпалка «Кастор» и около 15 парусных и парусно - моторных судов.

Судьба на пароходы  «Веста», «Мария» и «Амвросий» известны - к Турции они отношения не имели.
А вот 3 остальных (особенно землечерпалка) - не было ли у них продолжения жизни у кого из фирм Вашей страны ?
«Кастор» ввели в строй незадолго до начала 1 МВ - вряд - ли бы его просто так сдали на слом.
Заранее спасибо за ответы даже если результат будет отрицательный.

#15 10.04.2011 00:49:26

Олег
Контр-адмиралъ
k-admiral
Откуда: Москва
корабль Трех Святителей: Василия Великого, Григория Богослова, Иоанна Златоуст
Сообщений: 5898




Re: Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

Dear Emir Efendi!
Was there any system of the ship ranges in Ottoman fleet in 18-19 centure?  Do you know any document, that define total strength of the Ottoman navy?


“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.”
Carl Schurz

#16 12.04.2011 23:27:30

Kapudan Emir Efendi
Гость




Re: Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

Олег написал:

Оригинальное сообщение #374073
Dear Emir Efendi!
Was there any system of the ship ranges in Ottoman fleet in 18-19 centure?  Do you know any document, that define total strength of the Ottoman navy?

Greetings Oleg,

The Ottoman Navy hadn't such rating system. Until 1798, Ottoman Empire had a very different administrative apparatus compared to western and westernized states. A lack of cartesian governance and a decentralised state apparatus are the hallmarks of pre-1789 Ottoman administration. Consequently, Ottoman shipbuilding was totally unlike the highly scientific enterprise of european nations. It was of course formidable and well organized, and Ottoman archives are full of meticulously written shipyard records. However the whole industry was a largely artisanal enterprise. no plans were drawn, no models constructed even no reliable paintings are made. That is why foreign archives, especially Russian archive, is invaluable for the material culture of Ottoman history.

As of ottoman ship classification system, ships were first divided according to the number of gundecks. three decker was "üç ambarlı" (exact translation) two decker was simply "kalyon". New model big two deckers built upon french plans from late 1780's were "kapak" or "kapak kalyon". other than the number of gundecks, length of keel was the second distincton system of the ottoman sailing warships. According to Ottoman regulation any ship destined to enter into the battleline must had a keel length of 51 ottoman feet (zira). Ships smaller than this length but still with two decks were called "karavele". Ships converted from merchant hulls were also called karavele.

#17 12.04.2011 23:58:51

Олег
Контр-адмиралъ
k-admiral
Откуда: Москва
корабль Трех Святителей: Василия Великого, Григория Богослова, Иоанна Златоуст
Сообщений: 5898




Re: Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

Kapudan Emir Efendi!

Kapudan Emir Efendi написал:

Оригинальное сообщение #375260
According to Ottoman regulation any ship destined to enter into the battleline must had a keel length of 51 ottoman feet (zira).

What period this rule respond to? This depend to SOL or big frigates also?

Kapudan Emir Efendi написал:

Оригинальное сообщение #375260
Ships smaller than this length but still with two decks were called "karavele".

So SOL "Rodos" in ottoman navy called karavele?
Do you know averege year budget of the ottoman navy (in english pounds or another europian carrency)?

Может перенести вопросы в отдельную тему или сюда http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=372 ?

Отредактированно Олег (13.04.2011 00:00:00)


“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.”
Carl Schurz

#18 13.04.2011 00:34:17

Kapudan Emir Efendi
Гость




Re: Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

Олег написал:

Оригинальное сообщение #375274
What period this rule respond to? This depend to SOL or big frigates also?

The basis of Ottoman sailing navy organization was, from 1701 to 1798, Mezomorto Hüseyin Pasha's Regulation of Galleons (Kalyonlar Nizamnamesi). The requirement of length also was specified here. Big frigates became a feature of Ottoman navy only after Napoleonic Wars. By then the term karavele has fallen out of use, along with the ships designed as such too of course.

Олег написал:

Оригинальное сообщение #375274
So SOL "Rodos" in ottoman navy called karavele?

Good question ! I have a nice photo of the model of Rodos from St. Petersburg naval museum but I don't know its measurements. Ships called as karavele are usually 40-50 guns. As I know Rodos is a 60 gun ship, so seems a bit big to be a karavele to me.

Олег написал:

Оригинальное сообщение #375274
Do you know averege year budget of the ottoman navy (in english pounds or another europian carrency)?

Another good question. There are lots of navy bills published in and around so far, however I don't remember seeing a yearly budget count made so far. In the Chesma period there was a chronic shortage of naval funds, almost all ships at chesma had only half of their allowed number of personnel, almost like a skeleton crew, because of lack of pay.

I also have a question, concerning the model of Rodos. Are plans of this model drawn ? may it be possible to obtain them if they are prepared ?

Отредактированно Kapudan Emir Efendi (13.04.2011 00:35:49)

#19 13.04.2011 01:11:13

Олег
Контр-адмиралъ
k-admiral
Откуда: Москва
корабль Трех Святителей: Василия Великого, Григория Богослова, Иоанна Златоуст
Сообщений: 5898




Re: Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

Kapudan Emir Efendi написал:

Оригинальное сообщение #375288
Big frigates became a feature of Ottoman navy only after Napoleonic Wars.

I'm disagree with you. Ottoman navy have 2 well armed frigates in the beginning of the second russo-turkish war (1787-1791) and 10 years late class 50 guns frigates with 24-pound guns.

Kapudan Emir Efendi написал:

Оригинальное сообщение #375288
almost all ships at chesma had only half of their allowed number of personnel,

It is new and very important information, this explain lot of facts in that war! Thanck you vary mach. But turkish ships have rather big crew. Are you know averege crew number in SOL in the Chesma?

Kapudan Emir Efendi написал:

Оригинальное сообщение #375288
Are plans of this model drawn ?

I do not know, but I shall ask about this plan in another russian forums.

Отредактированно Олег (13.04.2011 01:12:01)


“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.”
Carl Schurz

#20 13.04.2011 02:26:43

Kapudan Emir Efendi
Гость




Re: Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

Олег написал:

Оригинальное сообщение #375300
I'm disagree with you. Ottoman navy have 2 well armed frigates in the beginning of the second russo-turkish war (1787-1791) and 10 years late class 50 guns frigates with 24-pound guns.

ah this issue of early Ottoman 50 gun frigates. Well, Of course, especially during the years 1806-12, there appear a lot of seemingly big, 50 gun frigates in various Ottoman task forces. However these should not be mixed with the case of heavily armed swedish and russian battle frigates. Those Ottoman ships are rather ordinary 40 gunners but overloaded with extra guns. They didn't carry 24 pdrs. either but carried 18 pdrs. One good example of these ships is the Bedir-i Zafer which was taken by HMS Seahorse after an epic 2 day battle in 1807. Ottomans started to build heavy frigates in imitation of russian navy towards the end of napolenic wars.

Олег написал:

Оригинальное сообщение #375300
It is new and very important information, this explain lot of facts in that war! Thanck you vary mach. But turkish ships have rather big crew. Are you know averege crew number in SOL in the Chesma?

Şemdanizade Fındıklılı Suleyman Efendi, Ottoman chronicler and personal friend of the unlucky Mandalzade Hüsameddin Pasha who was fleet commander at Chesma, went to congratulate his friend for his appointment to the admiralship of Ottoman fleet. However Mandalzade tells him there is nothing to congratulate for the situation of the navy is pitiful. As he tells, he was summoned to the palace and to his amazement, he was declared admiral of the fleet and then he was ordered to prepare and set sail in one month while, according to him, it is even difficult to make the ships and crews ready in four months. as Şemdanizade relates Hüseyin Pasha's words in his book "Mür'it-Tevarih" : "A battleship works with 500 personnel in peacetime while in wartime 500 more men are necessary for the fight. In my ship, there are only 300 of the 500 peacetime crew present; 200 of them are lured away by my predecessor, by the shipyard administration and by the captain of another ship. When I pressurized this captain, it did serve to nothing, moreover he complained of me of (in the court) through his protector (from the palace). Pray God for that we will not meet the enemy; if we encounter the enemy our ships and men are only fit to run. If we shall attempt to fight our doom is certain." source: Mür'it-Tevarih, ed. Münir Aktepe, pg. 33-34.

Олег написал:

Оригинальное сообщение #375300
I do not know, but I shall ask about this plan in another russian forums.

thank you ! I'm determined to find any single plan and illustration of turkish ships in the russian archives.

#21 14.04.2011 00:03:18

Олег
Контр-адмиралъ
k-admiral
Откуда: Москва
корабль Трех Святителей: Василия Великого, Григория Богослова, Иоанна Златоуст
Сообщений: 5898




Re: Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

Thank you!
3 or 4 years ago Edward Sozaev gived a lot of information about ottoman navy. You say, that information about turkish super-frigates is mistake. Can you correct other information?

Заложенные после Чесмы турецкие ЛК имели:
72-пуш. - 42-24-14
66-пуш. - 28-18-8
52-58 - 18-8-8
50 - 15-9-4

Для сравнения пушки ЛК в списке 1737 г.:
72 - 48-12-8
66 - 24-12-8
62 - 18-12-8
52 - 12-8-8

Вот список турецкого флота в апреле 1786 г. если еще к ним добавить Марию Магдалину и достроенные корабли, то это, пожалуй, выглядит вполне правдоподобно - то, что турки имели на море в 1788:
(длина киля - в ziraa=758 мм)

Istanbul, armed, in the roads: guns sizes, complement, used (consumed) by:
One of 72: 6*52+28*42; 28*24; 2*24+14*13; 750; by ¾
Two of 66: 26*28; 26*18; 2*18+12*8; 650; 1 – by ½, another – by 2/3
Four of 58: 22*18; 24*8; 2*8+12*8; 550’ 1- new, 2 – by 2/3, 1 – by ¾
2 barca longa: 22*8; 2*8+8*4; 275; by 1/5
1 bomb vessel: 20*8; 1 mortar of 12”; 250; new
A frigate: 24*12; 2*812*8, 375; by ¾

Being armed:
Two of 52: 20*18; 22*8; 2*12+8*6, 500; 1 – by ¾, another – by 2/3
A frigate: 30*24; 2*18+18*9; 500; by ¼
Two corvettes: 24*8; 2*8+8*4, 375, 1 – by 4/5, another – by 1/2
1 barca longa: 22*8; 2*8+8*4; 275; by 1/5
1 bomb vessel: 2*18, 22 swivel guns, 1 mortar 10”; 24 avirons (oars); 70; new
1 bomb vessel: 1*24, 6 swivel guns, 1 mortar 8”; 28 oars, 36; new
1 canon boat: 1*18, 6 swivel guns, 24 oars, 32, new

In the sea of Marmora:
Two of 52: 20*15; 22*9: 2*9+8*4, 475; by 2/3
A frigate: 30*28; 2*18+12*15, 500; by ¼
A frigate: 24*8; 2*8+6*4; 320; transformed from old French galley; repaired; by 2/3

In Archipelago:
15 kirlangiches: each - 12*4, 80 (2 – Scio, 2 – Stangio, 2 – Butron, 3 – Negroponte, 2 – Naples de Romania, 2 – Rhodos, 1 – Lain (?)

In Satalie:
One of 52: 20*15; 22*9; 2*9+8*4, 475, by ¾
1 bomb vessel: 20*8, 1 mortar 12”, 250; by ¼

In Alexandria:
One of 52: 20*15; 22*9; 2*9+8*4; 475; by ½

In the Black sea:
1 corvette: 22*8; 150; by 2/3
2 kirlangiches: 16*4, 95; by ¼

in Ordinary:
One of 72: 6*52+22*42; 28*24; 2*24 (AV-bow)+14*13 (AR-stern); 750’ unfit
Two of 66: 26*28; 26*18; 2*18+12*8; 650; by 2/3 and ¼
Three of 62: 24*18; 26*9; 2*12+10*6, 550; 1 – unfit, 1 – by 2/3, 1 – by ½
One of 56: 24*36; 26*18; 2*6+4*6, 480; old rotten French SoL, unfit (ex-Ferme)
Four of 52: 20*15; 22*9; 2*9+8*4; 475; 1 – by ¼, 1 – by ½, 2 – by ¾
A frigate: 26*8; 2*6+6*4, 350; unfit
3 corvettes: 24*6; 2*6+6*4, 320; by 2/3
1 advice boat: 14*4, 150; captured corsair from Alexandria; by 4/5
3 advice boats: 12*4, 80, 1 – new, 2 – by ¼
2 bomb vessels: 20*8; 1 mortar 12”, new

Under construction:
Istanbul:
One of 72: 6*52+22*42; 28*24; 2*24+14*13; 750 (laid down in 1784), ready by ½
(Possibly, Bahr-I Zafer, 72, 750, 55 zira keel length, launched 1789)
One of 74: 28*36; 30*18; 6+10*8; 666, French design
(Possibly, Mukaddeme-i Nusret, completed in 1787-88)
One of 74 (same type as above), just laid down
2 corvettes: 14*8, 90; French design
1 corvette: 10*8, 70; almost completed
1 bomb vessel: 1*24. 6 swivel guns, 1 mortar 8”, 36, French design
3 canon boats: 1*24, 30; 1 of them is completed

Metelino and Bodrum
One of 64 guns (Hilal-I Zafer of 1790? 51 zira, 66 guns, 650)
One of 54 guns

Sinop (laid down):
One of 74 (Feyz-i Huda of 1789?, 55 zira, 72 guns, 750)
One of 54 (Fatih-i Bahri of 1790??, 47 zira, 60 guns, 550)

Rodosto:
2 barca longa – completed

Gallas (laid down):
2 frigates: 26*12; 2+4*6, 240


“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.”
Carl Schurz

#22 14.04.2011 20:36:05

Kapudan Emir Efendi
Гость




Re: Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

Олег написал:

Оригинальное сообщение #374073
Do you know any document, that define total strength of the Ottoman navy?

Dear Oleg,

Today I received Yusuf Alperen Aydın's book "Sultanın Kalyonları" (Sultan's Galleons) as a gift from its author. Through a quick look, I am now able to respond your question.

The Naval Regulation of 1701 specified that the Ottoman Navy needed to maintain 40 ships of the line; 20 being stored in the arsenal "in ordinary" while the other 20 would make the annual mediterranean patrol -against pirates- each year, in peace time. In 1733, due to the increasing size and cost of warships, this number was halved to a total of 20, 10 being in ordinary and 10 being used for the mediterranean patrol in peacetime. Also, the state usually hired up to 5 or 7 merchant ships which were converted to "caravella" i.e armed merchants in wartime.

#23 14.04.2011 21:30:29

Михаил
Капитанъ II ранга
k2r
Откуда: Липецк
ТАКР "Адмирал Кузнецов"
Сообщений: 561




Re: Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

Kapudan Emir Efendi написал:

Оригинальное сообщение #375965
Yusuf Alperen Aydın's book "Sultanın Kalyonları"

Is there a book list of the Ottoman ships?

#24 23.05.2011 16:03:44

Doubting Thomas
Гость




Re: Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

Kapudan Emir Efendi написал:

Оригинальное сообщение #372764
Vsem Privet,

Dear Sir!
There is a link to Besim Özcan's P.h.D dissertation «Rus donanmasinin Sinop baskini» in a new article about Sinop and “Taif” ("В пример "Варягу" http://www.lebed.com/2011/art5853.htm), which particularly regards the number of guns (12 pieces) on this steamer. Could you tell us what is written in the book "Sinop Deniz Felaketi" about that and what is your opinion? How many cannons had “Taif”?
Sincerely yours…

#25 16.06.2011 02:00:04

iTow
Подозрительная личность(C)
gardemarin
Сообщений: 4771




Re: Диссертации по истории турецкого военного флота

Уважаемый Emir Efendi в ветке о русско-турецких войнах в нескольких местах говорится о бое парохода "Веста" с броненосцем "Фетхи Буленд". В российской литературе широко распространено мнение, что пароход обратил броненосец в бегство. Хотелось бы знать, что на этот счет пишут в Турции. Есть ли какая-либо работа, в которой предпринят серьезный анализ происшедшего. Если Вас не затруднит, не могли бы Вы привести соответствующие данные. Думаю, это представляет интерес не только для меня.

Отредактированно iTow (16.06.2011 02:00:54)

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