ГП в районе котельных отделений 279мм, опечатка(предпоследняя схема)?

sas1975kr написал:

#1045825
Стр 54, приложение к рапорту арт офицера Тайгера. Сам он говорит что попадания не наблюдал.Что послужило источником данной схемы?

Раз сам автор рапорта не может сказать, откуда эта схема...

sas1975kr написал:

#1045825
У Кэмпбела количество попаданий меньше - 15 280-мм и 3 150-мм. Верить Кэмпбелу безоговорочно и схему пускать в топку?

Кэмпбелл вроде бы составлял свои схемы/описания по отчетам. Где и описания "потолще", и кое-какие схемки/рисунки прилагались.

Но на последний вопрос ответить как бы нельзя, ИМХО.

sas1975kr написал:

#1045825
Сильно смущает что эта же схема попаданий по Тайгеру у Робертса в Варшип...

Может, он тогда Кэмпбелла ещё не учёл? По датам выхода что там? (не помню в каком Уоршипе, но довольно старом вроде.)

realswat написал:

#1045937
Для начала - найти на схеме попадания, соответствующие описанным Кэмпбеллом.

Хотел посоветовать то же самое:-).
Ещё: имеет смысл выделить те попадания, к которым имеется описание в обоих вариантах. Вариантов вообще-то больше, но у того же Пузыревского они явно третичные

vov написал:

#1046036
Хотел посоветовать то же самое:-).
Ещё: имеет смысл выделить те попадания, к которым имеется описание в обоих вариантах. Вариантов вообще-то больше, но у того же Пузыревского они явно третичные

Сказать легко. Что делать например с 150-мм попаданиями, места которых у Кэмпбела не расписаны?

http://www.jacar.go.jp/DAS/meta/imageen … _S32=&
Boarding report on Royal Indomitable and Tiger (2), January 20, 1919

sas1975kr написал:

#1046075
Что делать например с 150-мм попаданиями, места которых у Кэмпбела не расписаны?

Но они сильно второстепенны. Что 3. что 5, не столь важно. Достаточно ГК: разница там примерно такая же.

Ок, текст из Кэмпбела

CHAPTER 5 Damage to capital ships 1548-1654

In the Tiger both `Q' and `X` turrets were hit at 1554 at about 13,500yds range. The 31/4in front roof plate of `Q' turret was struck close to the centre sighting hood, at an angle of about 22° to the plate face by a shell which burst on impact. The plate was lifted 2in at the right rear corner and most of the fastenings fractured. The centre sighting hood was knocked off and the side hoods shaken, the right one being sheared off its fastenings. The roof kept the shell out, but it was holed over an area of 3ft3in x 4ft8in, and there were eight casualties (three killed), while shell fragments made a hole 9in x 3in in the turntable centre girder. The centre and right sights and the centre position training gear were wrecked, and the range-finder was out of action, the left sight `wooded', and all firing circuits cut. The air cock was blown off the right run in and out cylinder of the left gun, causing loss of water when the gun ran out. Both gun-loading cages were jammed, but after removing the cam rail actuating the cordite flash doors, the left cage could be used, though the right gun had to go tosecondary loading for the rest of the battle. Both guns were soon brought back into action, and as the Director gear was undamaged, they were laid and trained by Director and fired by percussion on hearing the forward guns fire.

Cordite fumes caused some trouble as the compressed air supply failed as a result of Hit No 9 below, and in the whole action `Q' only fired 32 rounds, of which two were before the hit, as compared with 109 rounds by `B' turret.

`X' turret was hit on the 9in barbette armour near its junction with the 3in armour and the lin upper deck. A piece of 9in armour 27in x 16in was broken off, the 3in armour dented in about 3in and the upper deck holed, while the 4in armour plate adjoining the 3in was also dented at the top corner. The shell entered the turret through the revolving structure about 3ft below the lower edge of the turret shield, but did not explode properly, though the bursting charge ignited with a partial burst and partial rocket effect just inside the turn-table, and the body of the shell without the point, remained in the lower floor of the gun-house between the guns in the centre of the turret, together with large fragments of armour. The centre sight-setter was blown against the roof and killed but there were apparently no other casualties, respirators preventing any gassing. The centre training shaft was smashed, one of the flash doors jammed, the left gun depression control valve casting fractured which led to water running down to the handing room, and the Director laying and firing circuits cut. After 7 minutes the turret began firing again, and both guns were able to continue in action with Director training, individual laying and percussion firing. A total of 75 rounds was fired by `X' turret in the battle but some probably went very wide as at 1811 it was discovered that the turret was 19° off its correct bearing in Director training, and had to be lined up. The effect of these two hits was thus to reduce the Tiger to at best a 3.-turret ship.

In addition to the above, 12 more 11 in hits were made on the Tiger. In order from forward these were:

1 Struck the '/2in forecastle deck l Oft from the port edge and about 107ft from the bows, coming from c50°abaft the beam, and burst 22 ft from impact. Severe damage was caused to light structures and the fire-main wrecked. Fragments holed the '/4in upper deck, and also the '/,bin starboard side at the top of the cable locker, 30ft from the burst. One small hole in the Iin main deck. This hit was at about 1605.

2 Struck and shattered inner starboard cable holder about 8ft aft of Hit No 1, at 1550/51 coming from c60° forward of the beam, and passed through the 1/2in forecastle deck, bursting 8ft from impact in the sick-bay. Severe damage was caused to light structures, and many holes were made by fragments in the 7/,bin starboard side, and a hole 5ft x 4ft blown in the I in upper deck, though the ;/ein main deck was not holed.

3 Passed through a side scuttle in the '/,,In side between the upper and forecastle decks about 14ft aft of Hit No 2, and burst l7ft inboard over the lin upper deck. Fragments made holes up to 3ft x 2ft6in in the upper deck but did not pierce the %in main deck. Considerable damage was done to all light structures near the burst of this shell which came from c25° abaft the beam and hit at about 1635.

4 Passed through the 7/16in side plating just below a scuttle between the forecastle and upper decks, coming from a few degrees forward of the beam, and struck Bin armour on the fore side of `A' barbette 1 ft6in above the l in upper deck, and about the same distance from a vertical joint between plates. The armour was holed to a depth of 2'/2in, with concentric cracks, and driven in about 6in at the lower edge where it joined the 4in armour at upper deck level. The amount of damage on the upper deck is uncertain, but the turret mounting was undamaged, though `A' handing room was severely affected by gas and smoke. This hit was probably at about 1553.

5 This shell which came from somewhat abaft the beam, probably struck a few minutes after No 4, and pierced the 5in side armour at main deck level on a line 4ft aft of `A' barbette, making a hole 13 '/2in x 121/4in. It burst 4ft from impact, blowing a hole I Oft x 4ft in the 3/ein main deck, and wrecking the Chief Stokers' mess on this deck and the flour store on the lower deck.

6 Dented the 5in armour at the forecastle deck edge in line with CT, and deflected off. Probably came from somewhat abaft the beam and hit at a similar time to No 5.

7 Went through the middle funnel, coming from c17° forward of the beam. This shell which probably hit at about 1620, may have been a ricochet.

8 Struck starboard side of the shelter deck on a level between the 2nd and 3rd funnels at 1551, coming from c50° forward of the port beam. It made a hole c7ft6in x 3ft-2ft in the %in shelter-deck and one of 7ft6in x 8ft-4ft in the starboard 1/2m vertical plating between the shelter and forecastle decks, bursting 16ft from impact over the forecastle deck, which was here 3in teak on 11/2in steel. The planking was torn up but the 1'/tin plating was only indented and not holed.

9 This hit at 1555, pierced the 6in side armour a little below the upper deck, and 2ft forward of the after edge of `Q' barbette. The angle to the normal was estimated at 5-10°, and the shell made a hole of 12'/tin diameter in the side armour with a piece 6in wide broken away to the edge of the plate, passed through a 3/Bin bulkhead and burst against a second one, 22ft from impact and 8ft from the after 6in hoist. There were 2-6in charges near the top of the hoist which were set on fire, but the flash did not pass down the trunk to the shell room and magazine. Severe damage was done to light structures along the path of the shell and near the burst and some damage done well aft of the latter, and also to the middle line of the ship. Many holes were made in the 3/Bin main deck, and the base of the shell also went through the I in armour deck making a hole 101/2in x 9in, and penetrated the 3/4in thick web of the main steam pipe. Another fragment also went through the main deck, a 3/Bin bulkhead and the 1 in armour deck. The fire-main was perforated by small holes and the casualties were 12 killed and several wounded and gassed.

The after 6in magazine was flooded, and `Q' port magazine, a relatively small compartment as most of `Q' magazine was to starboard, also flooded through a ventilation pipe from the 6in magazine, as an attempt to close the 6in ventilation valve failed. When 'Q' port magazine was full, water leaked badly through the venting plates, and it appears that the after 6in shell room flooded, and water also entered `Q' shell room. It does not appear to have been necessary to flood the after 6in magazine, and it was done by the Stoker PO of the flooding party after consultation with the rating in charge of the magazine. Some water had previously entered from the cut fire-main.

10 This shell struck the 6in side armour c30ft aft of No 9, the plate being set in about 3in maximum, with some distortion of framing.

11 Struck the 9in side armour just aft of the forward engine room. The plate was indented and forced in about 4in maximum, with some buckling of the structure inboard of the armour.

These two shells probably hit between 1620 and 1630. They are said to have burst on impact but there was apparently no bulging in of the hull plating below the armour, which would be expected if this were the case in Hit no 11.

12 This shell was a ricochet, and probably hit in the first 10 minutes. It struck the 4in water-line armour c35ft from the stern, and indented it over an area of c5ft x 2ft  to a maximum of about bin, with buckling and distortion of the framing inboard. A wing compartment 18ft in length, was flooded above the armour deck.

Of the total of 14 hits on the Tiger, No 3 above, is credited to the Seydlitz, and the others were from the Moltke.

CHAPTER 7 Damage to capital ships 1654-1815

The Princess Royal and New Zealand were not hit, but there was one 11 in hit on the Tiger at about 1658 from the Seydlitz. This shell, which was possibly a ricochet, passed through the after funnel near the top, coming from far aft. There was also an important gunnery breakdown in the Tiger, as the right gun of `A' turret was put out of action after firing 27 rounds, by a fracture in the valve-box and control plunger of the run-out cut-off valve, and temporary repairs were not completed until after the action was over. There was considerable leakage of water which got into the working chamber.

Отредактированно sas1975kr (11.03.2016 23:55:55)

realswat написал:

#1045937
Для начала - найти на схеме попадания, соответствующие описанным Кэмпбеллом.

Вот наложение на Робертса схемы с приблизительным (позже сделаю поточнее) положением попаданий по Кэмпбелу.


В скобках номерация Робертса, с № - Кэмпбела

№1 и (2) отличие не большое, возможно это один и тот же. Но по кэмпбелу метров на 5 дальше
№2 (3), №3 (4), №4 (5) совпадают. Но №4 11 дюймов, а не 12 как в (5).
Дальше расхождения. По описанию №5= (6), но место немного разное.
Соответствия попаданий (7), (8) и №6 нет. Нужно поискать в записках артофицера (7), он не мог не заметить.
№7 и (9) - сопадение
№8 нет, но ему по описанию соотвествует (21). Только это выходное отверстие по Кэмпбелу, а не попадание с левого борта. И 11 дюймов, а не 12.
(10) и (11) соответсвует только одному попаданию - №В во второй фазе.
№9 нет. А оно с большими повреждениями и есть еще в воспоминаниях главного механика. Тут схема Робертса явно не полна ИМХО.
Попадания в башни №А (12) и №Б(16) совпадают.
№10 (13), № 11 (14), №12 (17) совпадают
(15) соответствия нет...

Отредактированно sas1975kr (12.03.2016 11:34:10)

sas1975kr написал:

#1046203
Почему-то скачивается пустой джвю...

ПДФ
http://файлообменник.рф/ … c3e29.html

sas1975kr написал:

#1046177
Вот наложение на Робертса схемы с приблизительным (позже сделаю поточнее) положением попаданий по Кэмпбелу.

Как-то странно Вы анализируете, если честно.
Вот же на картиночке написано "14, 15. Did not penetrate belt".
Вот Кэмпбелл:

sas1975kr написал:

#1046174
№10. Между 16:20 и 16:30. Снаряд попал в 152-мм пояс в 9,1 м в корму от попадания №9. Броневая плита была вдавлена на 76 мм[33].
№11. Между 16:20 и 16:30. Попадание в 229-мм пояс в районе окончания переднего машинного отделения. Плита была вдавлена на 100 мм с небольшим прогибом борта за броней[33].

По моему, предельно ясно, что это - одно и то же.

Точно так же, как и "13 Did more damage than any others" это:

sas1975kr написал:

#1046174
  №9. 15:55. Попадание в 152-мм верхний пояс чуть ниже верхней палубы, в 0,6 м впереди переднего края барбета башни «Q». Угол падения по отношении к нормали и снаряд пробил отверстие диаметром порядка 305 мм, загнув выбитый кусок брони к краю плиты. Снаряд на своем пути прошел сквозь 19-мм переборку и взорвался в 6,7 м от места попадания, в 2,4 м от подъемника 152-мм зарядов. Загорелись два полузаряда, находившиеся в этот момент в верхней части подъемника. Но пламя не прошло вниз в погреба. Небольшие повреждения были нанесены легким конструкциям, находившимся на пути снаряда и вокруг места взрыва. Множество осколков пробили 19-мм главную палубу. Основная часть снаряда прошла сквозь 25,4 мм броневую палубу, сделав пробоину 270х230 мм, и пробила 19-мм стенку канала главного паропровода[31], по счастью не повредив его(это из воспоминаний). Еще один осколок прошел сквозь главную палубу, 19-мм переборку и 25,4-мм броневую палубу. Также мелки соколки пробили пожарную магистраль. Потери составили 12 погибших и несколько раненых и отравившихся газами. Кормовой 152-мм зарядный погреб был затоплен. А из него через вентиляционные отверстия вода попала и в зарядный погреб правого борта башни «Q». После полного затопления этого погреба вода сквозь вентиляционные отверстия начала поступать в 152-мм снарядный погреб и снарядный погреб башни «Q»[32].

Я, конечно, понимаю - у Кэмпбелла "впереди переднего края барбета Q", а на схеме - позади заднего. Но, если охота так заморачиваться, то да. Это - как с загадошной получасовой разницей во времени от Эда.

realswat написал:

#1046735
у Кэмпбелла "впереди переднего края барбета Q", а на схеме - позади заднего. Но, если охота так заморачиваться,

Да тут тоже особо не надо заморачиваться:

sas1975kr написал:

#1046757
Т.е. за два фута до заднего края барбета

Это вполне логично.
По описанию, снаряд попал в барбет под углом, близком к нормали. Что возможно только сзади, если снаряд пришел сзади, т.е. при "беге на север". И наоборот, в переднюю часть барбета - при преследовании немцев, "забеге на юг".