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#126 08.07.2012 20:56:37

SAMURAI
Гость




Re: Гибель генерал-майора авиации Токарева Н.А. в 1944 на ЧФ.

В принципе, я изложила всё, что собиралась изложить по этому вопросу.

Ну, я отвечу так. Маркин в данной ситуации - не демон, но точно и не герой. Его можно считать тоже жертвой обстоятельств. У человека два ордена, карьера началась ещё до войны. Особенно он не продвигался, но бывал в переделках. Потому тупо о предательстве никто и не говорит. Здесь имеет смысл говорить о морально-этической стороне вопроса. И Минаков, как командир, и многие другие лётчики, наверное, примеривали на себя :"Вот меня бы раненого бросили догорать в самолёте, даже не сделав попытку вытащить".

Давайте рассуждать логически. Хотя теперь ясно, что самолёт не взорвался, могли ли штурман со стрелком ожидать взрыва в любую минуту? Наверное, могли. Ведь крыло горело, и пламя подбиралось к кабинам. Поэтому сработал инстинкт самосохранения, они побыстрее покинули самолёт. Кроме того, реально мы не знаем, пытались ли штурман и стрелок убедиться в том, жив Токарев, или уже нет. В то же время самолёт был именно посажен, а не упал. Поэтому можно быть уверенным, что по крайней мере в момент посадки Токарев был жив. А вот был ли жив он после посадки, уже неизвестно. Мог и о приборную доску удариться, и просто , дотянув, умереть, и угореть... и всё это уже не так важно. Я полагаю, что на момент, когда к самолёту смогли приблизиться люди (население и немцы), внешних признаков жизни он уже не подавал.

Из тех свидетельств как бы очевидцев из местного населения можно на веру принять только месторасположение самолёта и отчасти сведения о его состоянии. Рассказы о рукопожатии Маркина с комендантом, угоны самолёта, "бабушек с козочками", подходивших к самолёту, хохловского рыбака с ножичком и пр., можно во внимание не принимать. Не достоверно. Всё это - ОБС. Описание Денисова и описание Хохлова в мемуарах не вполне достоверны и противоречивы.

Ясно только одно, что видно и по оперсводке, Денисов доложил, что погибли все. А убедился ли он в этом на самом деле, как он пишет о двух кругах на бреющем полёте над горевшим самолётом, или нет, этого мы уже точно не узнаем. Представляю, какой был переполох, когда всё это случилось.

Могло бы пролить свет - личное дело Маркина. И второе - акт расследования катастрофы Токарева, а, может, и уголовное дело, если оно было возбуждено. Не зря же пришла в Ваенгу бумажка об аресте Маркина. А НКВД - просто инструмент. Возбудили дело, свидетель оказался жив, ну, вот за ним и пришли. Кстати, бумажки циркулируют не так быстро, как самолёты. А все "сказки" могли появиться уже позже, даже много позже окончания войны. И сталинские времена ни при чём. Сплетни и слухи были во все времена.

Здесь ещё вопрос с Обуховым. Меня терзают смутные сомнения, что он взлетел, вернулся, опять полетел.  Там всё происходило стремительно. Я даже верю, что Хохлов по грязи бежал, чтобы успеть остановить всё это безобразие. Думаю, что Обухов просто догонял стремительно умчавшего комдива... Вот так и "повеселились"...

Остальное я написала коротко ранее, что я думаю. И свои мысли развивать я не буду, а то пойдёт по интернету гулять версия ещё одного "свидетеля".

1. Кордонский у Чупрова был штурманом - это точно.
2. Надо поднять УПК Кордонского, уточнить, когда и по какому классу он закончил Училище, для очистки совести.
3. Был ли Чупров сбит вечером, или ночью надо смотреть в документах. То же и о захоронении. Про ордена, я говорила, в интернете далеко не все сведения есть. Надо тоже смотреть УПК.   

По поводу относительно свежих книг Василия Ивановича, я посмотрю у себя. Они у нас есть, но Музей на реконструкции. Не обещаю, что найду быстро.

Отредактированно SAMURAI (08.07.2012 20:59:25)

 

#127 10.07.2012 11:16:21

SAMURAI
Гость




Re: Гибель генерал-майора авиации Токарева Н.А. в 1944 на ЧФ.

Уважаемый Мирослав, хочу ещё раз поблагодарить за предоставленные документы и хороший анализ ситуации! Спасибо так же другим участникам ветки за помощь в "разборе" этих полётов.

Я вчера ещё раз всё изучила, посмотрела и документы на ОБД, крепко подумала.
В принципе мы общими усилиями, я думаю, убрали "туман" над гибелью комдива Токарева.

Квинтэссенцию я изложила в двух крайних сообщениях тут (внизу)
http://forum.evvaul.com/index.php?topic … 9#msg73329

На следующей странице там я изложила всё, что на данный момент можно сказать о дальнейшей судьбе Маркина и Гончарова.

 

#128 18.03.2016 15:55:00

arrow1
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Re: Гибель генерал-майора авиации Токарева Н.А. в 1944 на ЧФ.

Miroslaw Morozow

Incidently I discovered the crash photo of Tokarev A-20
near Evpatoria . I also came across colored photos
of Nikolai Tokarev from 1943 in Moscow .

Its from the Lufwaffe archives . If you
have my private email contact me there if not
contact me here .

Alex K

https://lifesupportintl.wordpress.com/2 … s-in-wwii/

 

#129 01.06.2016 02:05:41

arrow1
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Re: Гибель генерал-майора авиации Токарева Н.А. в 1944 на ЧФ.

Tovarish Morozov

I am very glad to see your correspondance with Victor
however a great deal of what you are told on the Romanian
forum is a bunch of boloney , especially this that the A-20
of Tokarev was shot down by a Romanian IAR-80 fighter
same about the other events related to the DB-3F's and A-20's
losses near Evpatoria early 1944.  As into beneath crews

20.8.44 capt. Chuprov crew
20.8.44 capt. Bublikov crew
22.8.44 capt. Alfimov crew

I have all records who shot down who , but if you consider
to use reference material frm the Romanians , budty zdarov
y budy bagatuzy tovarish Polkovnik Morozow , definitely they
will get you great help ! Finally I always thought you are
Russian national rather Ukrainian ,nevertheless happy time .

Отредактированно arrow1 (01.06.2016 02:09:58)

 

#130 01.06.2016 18:31:45

Botik Petra Velikogo
Адмиралъ
admiral
anna3 stas3b
Сообщений: 9882




Re: Гибель генерал-майора авиации Токарева Н.А. в 1944 на ЧФ.

arrow1 написал:

#1065314
I have all records who shot down who

Could you share with me of this dates?
Thank you for kind words.


"Вранье и ложь в пропаганде, агитации и печати дискредитируют партийно-политическую работу, флотскую печать и наносят исключительный вред делу большевистского воспитания масс".

Из директивы заместителя Наркома ВМФ СССР и Начальника Главного политического управления ВМФ армейского комиссара 2 ранга И.В. Рогова.

 

#131 01.06.2016 21:43:16

Юрген
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k1r
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Re: Гибель генерал-майора авиации Токарева Н.А. в 1944 на ЧФ.

SAMURAI написал:

#558901
инстинкт самосохранения, они побыстрее покинули самолёт. Кроме того, реально мы не знаем, пытались ли штурман и стрелок убедиться в том, жив Токарев, или уже нет. В то же время самолёт был именно посажен, а не упал.

А рассматривалась ли версия, что Токарев сам дал команду "Экипажу покинуть самолет"? Ведь многие летчики так делали в похожей ситуации.

 

#132 05.06.2016 10:32:37

arrow1
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Re: Гибель генерал-майора авиации Токарева Н.А. в 1944 на ЧФ.

Kamerad Morozow

Here's the transcript of your communication with
Victor a few weeks ago , moderator of the Romania WW2 Forum
just in case you  forgot.

[b]Question : 

If you know the Soviet Navy history so well and wrote books, just simply out of curiosity why would you then
bother to talk to those idiot Romanians crooks and history revisionists who by the way hate Russian Federation
and continue glorify Antonescu and Hitler who also claim Ukraine should politically destroy Russia ,Tovarish  ?

Especially that you served your country as Colonel during Soviet Union times and
teaching military history in Petersburg ,I must admit I am  very disappointed seeing your
communicaton with those Romanians Neo Nazis & Fascists  , I was wrong about you and
you was right about me. If my English is too difficult, I would ask my wife to write you in Russian

[b]Dasfidanya Budy Bagatz  , Budty Zdaravov y  Mnogo Uspeha Tov.Morozow maybe after all
you were of Ukrainian origin by deciding what you decided.  PS : I served my country ending
as Major in the Air Force and yet I have eyes to see the truth . Is very unfortunate that a
Historian like you acting this way, period !

Dasfidanya

Alex K

Romanian WWII Air Campaigns Historian

https://lifesupportintl.wordpress.com/2 … s-in-wwii/



PS : In 2015 I proudly became Russian Citizen on that respect screw
       Ro-Mania ,Ukrainmania , Lithumania, Latviamania, Estomania, Polshamania and any other
       Mania illness related States supporting the cause of Porkoshenko and Kiev's mob.



The following list of the successes of the 49th Fighter Squadron of the 4th Fighter Group, which had been detached to Yevpatoria under German command, was compiled from the book Vanatorul IAR-80 by Dan Antoniu and George Cicos and form the Luftwaffe kill list of Tony Wood (see http://tonywood.cjb.net). I also used the book Marina Romana in al doilea razboi moindial by Nicolae Koslinski and Raymond Stanescu for a view of the Romanian Royal Navy.

7 July 1943
The convoy made up of the cargo-ships Ardeal and Varna and escorted by NMS Marasesti, NMS Marasti, NMS Stihi, NMS Dumitrescu and an R-boot. Two other R-boots and 6 MFPs later joined the convoy. During the night it was attacked by a submarine (Sc-201), which NMS Marasesti manage to damage severely. In the morning, at about 0600 hours, the convoy was attacked by four DB-3Fs. NMS Marasesti opened fire and shot down one of them. The sailors claimed that they saw the fighters shoot down two Soviet aircraft.

Here is what the two fighter pilots claimed:
Adj. av. Mihai Mihordea 1xBristol* at 0650 hours
Adj. av. Vasile Burcu 1xBristol at 0653 hours
Adj. av. Mihai Mihordea 1xBristol at 0656 hours

* The Romanian fighter pilots used to wrongly identify the DB-3F with the Bristol Beaufort.

1 August 1943
The convoy made up of the cargo-ships PLM 16, Prodromos, Kassa and Serose and escorted by NMS Marasti, NMS Murgescu, NMS Ghiculescu, NMS Dumitrescu and 2 R-boots was attacked at 0937 hours in the vicinity of Yevpatoria by two Soviet torpedo-bombers, coming from the south. The fire from the NMS Marasti and NMS Murgescu (probably the Romanian ship with the most aircraft shot-down) made them launch from far away (some 3,000m) and the torpedoes missed the destroyer. The airplanes machine-gunned the Xanten submarine-hunter, which had some casualties on board. Two IAR-80Cs of the 49th Squadron attacked the DB-3Fs and severely damaged them. The pilots did not see them crash, but they disappeared from German radar and the sailors claimed that the aircraft were shot down, so they were later confirmed.

Lt. av. Gheorghe Butnaru 1xBristol flying the IAR-80C no. 271
Serg. TR. av. Radu Costache 1xBristol flying the IAR-80C no. 241

6 September 1943
The convoy made up of the cargo-ships Burgas and KT 25 and escorted by NMS Regina Maria, NMS Regele Ferdinand, NMS Ghiculescu and 3 R-boots was attacked near Sevastopol by five Soviet bombers at 1220 hours and at 1251 by another four. The fighters intervened and claimed two kills, of which one was confirmed.

Adj. av. Stefan Dumitrescu 1xBoston III* flying the IAR-80C no. 271
Serg. TR. av. Radu Costache 1xBoston III probable flying the IAR-80C no. 274

* Probably also DB-3Fs

27 December 1943
Adj. av. Mircea Mazilu 1xBoston III at 0730 hours

30 January 1944
Adj. av. Mircea Simion 1xBoston III 3.5 km NE Yevpatoria at 1510 hours

3 February 1944
Lt. av. Gheorghe Butnaru 1xBoston III N of Ak. Mafelka
I have also found a mention of a German tug convoy being attacked near Odessa on 5 February and four Soviet aircraft being lost. Maybe this claim is actually for 5 February.

16 March 1943
Adj. av. Mihai Mihordea 1xBoston III at 1105 hours
Adj. av. Mihai Mihordea 1xBoston III at 1108 hours
Adj. av. Eugen Toflan 1xIl–2 at 1112 hours
The Luftwaffe record shows these kills on 19 March. It seems there was no convoy on 16 March, but there was one to Sevastopol on 19-21 March.

I would also be interested to know if Soviet records confirm these kills and if possible the unit, actual type of aircraft and even names of the VVS-ChF crewmen.

The episode of 28 September 1943 (the attack of the Soviet torpedo-bombers on Constanta) is another interesting subject, but there were no fighters involved in it. All were shot down by the AAA.


    Victor, your info really interests me, so I prepared the answer immediately. Miroslav Morozow


QUOTE
The following list of the successes of the 49th Fighter Squadron of the 4th Fighter Group, which had been detached to Yevpatoria under German command, was compiled from the book Vanatorul IAR-80 by Dan Antoniu and George Cicos and form the Luftwaffe kill list of Tony Wood (see http://tonywood.cjb.net/ ). I also used the book Marina Romana in al doilea razboi moindial by Nicolae Koslinski and Raymond Stanescu for a view of the Romanian Royal Navy.


I have in my collection day-by-day KTBs of Admiral Schwarzmeer for 2-3.1943 and 8-12.1943 and Marinekommandos Konstanza for the second half of the year and, of course, many soviet documents from Navy archive (CVMA).

QUOTE
7 July 1943 
The convoy made up of the cargo-ships Ardeal and Varna and escorted by NMS Marasesti , NMS Marasti , NMS Stihi , NMS Dumitrescu and an R-boot. Two other R-boots and 6 MFPs later joined the convoy. During the night it was attacked by a submarine (Sc-201), which NMS Marasesti manage to damage severely. In the morning, at about 0600 hours, the convoy was attacked by four DB-3Fs. NMS Marasesti opened fire and shot down one of them. The sailors claimed that they saw the fighters shoot down two Soviet aircraft. 

Here is what the two fighter pilots claimed: 
Adj. av. Mihai Mihordea 1xBristol* at 0650 hours 
Adj. av. Vasile Burcu 1xBristol at 0653 hours 
Adj. av. Mihai Mihordea 1xBristol at 0656 hours 

* The Romanian fighter pilots used to wrongly identify the DB-3F with the Bristol Beaufort.

KTB Konstanza gave R-37 and Ghiculescu instead Dumitrescu.
The convoy was located on the evening of 6.7, and on 04.20 (Moscow time everywhere in my text) 9 DB-3f (5th guard mine-torpedo regiment was the only VVS ChF unit on that type of plane) flew on the mission. Because the convoy wasn’t located for a long time 4 torpedo-bomber returned to the base (Gelendzhik off Noworosijsk). Only 5 bombers attacked the convoy on 08.45. Pilots claimed some hits in the transport, which presumed as damaged by the sub Sch-201. Two bombers (pilots – senior. lt D.I. Tumkin and V.K. Vaskov; I collect only pilots’ names) was shut downed by ship’s flak and fighters. The rest crews claimed a fighter as shut downed. Do you know how many fighters took part in the battle?

QUOTE
1 August 1943 
The convoy made up of the cargo-ships PLM 16 , Prodromos , Kassa and Serose and escorted by NMS Marasti , NMS Murgescu , NMS Ghiculescu , NMS Dumitrescu and 2 R-boots was attacked at 0937 hours in the vicinity of Yevpatoria by two Soviet torpedo-bombers, coming from the south. The fire from the NMS Marasti and NMS Murgescu (probably the Romanian ship with the most aircraft shot-down) made them launch from far away (some 3,000m) and the torpedoes missed the destroyer. The airplanes machine-gunned the Xanten submarine-hunter, which had some casualties on board. Two IAR-80Cs of the 49th Squadron attacked the DB-3Fs and severely damaged them. The pilots did not see them crash, but they disappeared from German radar and the sailors claimed that the aircraft were shot down, so they were later confirmed. 

Lt. av. Gheorghe Butnaru 1xBristol flying the IAR-80C no. 271 
Serg. TR. av. Radu Costache 1xBristol flying the IAR-80C no. 241


KTB Konstanza gave R-203, -206, -164 and add F-492, -493.
I think, the planes dropped their torpedoes more closely, otherwise they had no sense to be so close with Xanten. Both DB-3f survived this time. They didn’t get any moderate damages. Their pilots – V.F. Bublikov and A.R. Kovtun – perished 20.8.44 and 19.4.44 correspondently. The pilots claimed a 6000-ts ship as sunk and one from five Bf-109 as shut downed.

QUOTE
6 September 1943 
The convoy made up of the cargo-ships Burgas and KT 25 and escorted by NMS Regina Maria , NMS Regele Ferdinand , NMS Ghiculescu and 3 R-boots was attacked near Sevastopol by five Soviet bombers at 1220 hours and at 1251 by another four. The fighters intervened and claimed two kills, of which one was confirmed. 

Adj. av. Stefan Dumitrescu 1xBoston III* flying the IAR-80C no. 271 
Serg. TR. av. Radu Costache 1xBoston III probable flying the IAR-80C no. 274 

* Probably also DB-3Fs


The convoy was attacked on 14.00 by 5 Boston-III from 30th RAP (recon air regiment; not by torpedo-bomber unit, so I haven’t full , a Bf-110 and apicture). No hits were claimed. Battle with two FW-190  Bv-138 reported. No losses. BTW on the previous day the convoy was attacked by torpedo-bombers twice.
QUOTE
27 December 1943 
Adj. av. Mircea Mazilu 1xBoston III at 0730 hours


No soviets battle reports on that day and losses. May be unsuccessful attack on a recon plane?
QUOTE
30 January 1944 
Adj. av. Mircea Simion 1xBoston III 3.5 km NE Yevpatoria at 1510 hours


Great battle with many planes on that day. Three air waves attacked German ships off Yevpatoria on 14.15, 17.00 and 17.26. In the second wave was two A-20G, one of which was shut downed by flak and blew on the ground. His pilot – the commander of 1st MTAD (mine-torpedo air division) gen-mj N.A. Tokarew perished, two crewmen became POW. The second plane was late due technical troubles and attacked on 17.15. Its air escort (6 P-39) had battle with two “FW-190” and claimed one as shut down.
QUOTE
3 February 1944 
Lt. av. Gheorghe Butnaru 1xBoston III N of Ak. Mafelka 
I have also found a mention of a German tug convoy being attacked near Odessa on 5 February and four Soviet aircraft being lost. Maybe this claim is actually for 5 February.


On 15.30-17.48 3.2 great air battle over Ak-Mechet (on the north-west coast of Crimea) – 7 Pe-2, 13 Il-2, 14 P-39 attacked German ships. They had an engagement with 6 “FW-190” and 4 “He-115” (two of them claimed as downed). An Il-2 shut downed by the flak.

On 11.35 5.2 6 Pe-2, 4 P-39 attacked a convoy 16 miles off Odessa. No air engagements and no losses.
QUOTE
16 March 1943 
Adj. av. Mihai Mihordea 1xBoston III at 1105 hours 
Adj. av. Mihai Mihordea 1xBoston III at 1108 hours 
Adj. av. Eugen Toflan 1xIl–2 at 1112 hours 
The Luftwaffe record shows these kills on 19 March. It seems there was no convoy on 16 March, but there was one to Sevastopol on 19-21 March.


I think the battle was on 19.3.44. That day three waves of planes attacked a convoy off Tharkhankut Pt.
The first wave (4 A-20 torpedo-bombers, 6 Pe-2, 11 Il-2, 12 P-39) on 10.02 attacked the convoy. Two A-20 (kpt. E.A. Smirnov, lt. V.S. Romanov; both from 36th MTAP) shut downed by flak immediately after torpedo attack. In the air engagement a Bv-138 was claimed as downed.

The second wave (5 A-20 with bombs, 6 Pe-2, 12 Il-2, 18 P-39) attacked on 12.40. In fierce air engagement one A-20 (earlier damaged by flak) attacked by Bf-109 three times and then land on sea water in 1 km from the shore. The crew (pilot - senior lt. H.P. Romantsov, 36th MTAP) perished. 1 Ar-196, 2 Bv-138, 2 FW-190, 1 Bf-109 claimed as enemy losses.

The third wave (6 Pe-2, 12 Il-2, 14 P-39) attacked on 16.43. 3 Il-2 and a P-39 (another one damaged) lost in the air battle. Counter-claims are not clear for me.
Overall successes against ships claimed 1 transport of 2000 ts, 6 MFPs, 2 barges, 1 little barge, 1 PC as sunk and 1 MFP, 2 PC as damaged. Do you know the real composition and losses of the convoy?

QUOTE
The episode of 28 September 1943 (the attack of the Soviet torpedo-bombers on Constanta) is another interesting subject, but there were no fighters involved in it. All were shot down by the AAA.


A Boston-III and two A-20 downed by flak – certainly a half from attackers. From six crews of 36th MTAP (Col. Sh.B. Bedzinoshvili, kpt V.M. Levashov, sub lt. M.G. Dujkov, mj A.I. Fokin, senior lt V.P. Rukavitsin, senior lt A.D. Ryhlov) three former perished or became POW, but two later receive the HSU award by the end of the war!

I have the Nicolae Koslinski and Raymond Stanescu’s book, but unfortunately can’t read it due to the language obstacle. Could you please to translate some pages with the description of 28.9.43 Konstanza action for me?

What Romanian fighter units covered the convoys off Bessarabia – Romania coast?

What do you know about losses of Romanian fighters in engagements with the soviet torpedo-bombers?

Very best regards,
Miroslav Morozow 

    

[b]
[b]Victor


Please use the Quote tags. It is much easier to follow than the i tags.

QUOTE
Pilots claimed some hits in the transport, which presumed as damaged by the sub Sch-201. Two bombers (pilots – senior. lt D.I. Tumkin and V.K. Vaskov; I collect only pilots’ names) was shut downed by ship’s flak and fighters. The rest crews claimed a fighter as shut downed. Do you know how many fighters took part in the battle?


Only two IAR-80s from the 49th Fighter Squadron took part in the battle. Koslinski and Stanescu also mention two Bf-109Gs, probably German. No loses were reported. Also, none of the ships were damaged.
Can you say which one of the two Soviet bombers was shot down by fighters and which one by NMS Marasesti?
QUOTE
I think, the planes dropped their torpedoes more closely, otherwise they had no sense to be so close with Xanten. Both DB-3f survived this time. They didn’t get any moderate damages. Their pilots – V.F. Bublikov and A.R. Kovtun – perished 20.8.44 and 19.4.44 correspondently. The pilots claimed a 6000-ts ship as sunk and one from five Bf-109 as shut downed.

No ships were sunk.
The Bf-109s were not Romanian. The 49th Fighter Squadron covered the convoy with one IAR-80C Rotte at a time. There was also a IAR-39, a BV seaplane and a German Bf-110. Probably the Bf-109s intercepted the Soviet bombers later, on their way back.

QUOTE
The convoy was attacked on 14.00 by 5 Boston-III from 30th RAP (recon air regiment; not by torpedo-bomber unit, so I haven’t full picture). No claimed. Battlehits were , a Bf-110 and a Bv-138 reported. No losses. with two FW-190  BTW on the previous day the convoy was attacked by torpedo-bombers twice.

I realized they were not torpedo bombers, but I presumed you are interested in claims over any VVS-ChF bombers.
The two Fw-190s were most likely the two IAR-80Cs.

QUOTE
No soviets battle reports on that day and losses. May be unsuccessful attack on a recon plane?

The attack took place at 1,000 m. The reconnaissance aircraft generally flew higher.
The only Boston claimed by a German pilot (flying a Bf-109G) was the one of Ltn. Walter Wolfrum from 5./JG 52, at 10:58, in about the same area as the Romanian claims. As for the composition of the convoy sorry, I cannot help you. However, it seems that no large ship was sunk in that period.

The 46th Fighter Squadron (from the same 4th Fighter Group) was based at Cetatea Alba/Belgorod and flew missions mainly over sea off the Bessarabian coast and probably also in the Odessa area. The 49th Fighter Squadron was deployed in forward position at Yevpatoria and covered the last part of the trip from Constanta or Sulina to Sevastopol. The third squadron of the 4th Fighter Group (the 45th) was at Targsor, in the Ploesti area and claimed 4 B-24s during Operation Tidal Wave on 1 August 1943.

At Mamaia, near Constanta was also based the 52nd Fighter Squadron, which had the mission to defend the port and the railway bridge over the Danube.

From what I read, none were lost to Soviet torpedo-bombers. I will signal the topic to mr. Cicos. He can give you more details, I hope.

QUOTE
I have the Nicolae Koslinski and Raymond Stanescu’s book, but unfortunately can’t read it due to the language obstacle. Could you please to translate some pages with the description of 28.9.43 Konstanza action for me?

My question based on the memories of V. Minakov - one of the pilots of 5th GMTA, which met on November, 1944 at Mamaia an unknown Romanian night fighter pilot, which said that he achieved four night victories over Constanta. 5th GMTAP lost (MIA) four torpedo-bombers DB-3f in night sorties:
7.8.44 maj Darjin crew - commander of 3/5th GMTAP
20.8.44 capt. Chuprov crew - commander of 1/5th GMTAP
20.8.44 capt. Bublikov crew
22.8.44 capt. Alfimov crew

This was one of the worst period in the regiment's history.
May be you know another reasons for this losses?

Early on 24 August 1944 a Bf-109E of the 52nd Fighter Squadron claimed a Pe-2 near Constanta.

During that period, the 4th Fighter Group was involved on the front in Moldavia.

on 24 August 1944 a Bf-109E of the 52nd Fighter Squadron claimed a Pe-2 near Constanta. I knew that Lt. av. Stefan Florescu, who shot down a Pe-2 on August 24 - most probably the last air-to-air 'kill' of a Bf 109E - was part of Esc. 53 vân. It's said that only days later, he was intensely sought for by the Soviet KGB for his last act of defiance. However, his colleagues hid him until the threat diminished.


2 june 1943
At 12.40 off Eupatoria, 5 russian bombers attacked the convoy „Birgit" and "Helvetia", which was proceeding from Sevastopol to Sulina escorted by 2 romanian gunboats and 2 MFPs.
Steamship "Birgit" was hit by 2 bombs and she sank at 13.05. The crew was rescued by the escort vessels. During the attack, romanian fighters were with the convoy, but no planes were reported to have been shot down.

Commander Convoys and Escorts Black Sea has been informed that in the future, Commander Naval Air Black Sea(?) will also, if possible, detail German fighters to protect valuable convoys, since romanian fighter protection proved insufficient in the case of "Birgit".

Commander Naval Air Black Sea informed that it was planned to transfer a german fighter Staffel to Eupatoria for the protection of the imminent convoys. Execution of this measure was however dependent on the land and air situation at the Kuban front. After the failure of the romanian fighters in the case of the "Brigit" convoy, we must have protection by german fighters.

I therefore told 1.Fliegerkorps and Heeresgruppe A that, in addition to being stopped during the full moon period, the convoys would have to be canceled altogether, if fighter protection could not be promised. The disadvantageous consequences for the Army supplies to the Crimea would have to be accepted.

Отредактированно arrow1 (05.06.2016 12:17:58)

 

#133 05.06.2016 10:44:11

arrow1
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Re: Гибель генерал-майора авиации Токарева Н.А. в 1944 на ЧФ.

Kamerad Jurgen ,

I discovered Tokarev's A-20 crash site photo  , he's laying dead on front dome of the
aircraft half body out , the A-20  was named "Za Stalina " . He selected the logo when
he visited Moscow and Jukowsky Institute while participating at the German war
trofee exhibition in Moskow in summer 1943.

I doubt that Tokarev gave the order for the crew to leave the aircraft coze by then
he was dead !


What is not clear to me is why his Navigator Markin committed suicide later on in Nov 1944
by drinking kind of gasoline at a party just few months months after returning from German
POW's camp hospital in Sevastopol . Was he fearing a Stalinist trial ?


http://radikal.ru/Img/ShowUploadedImg?i … 228a759713

http://radikal.ru/Img/ShowUploadedImg?i … 54087160fd

Attched photo of Tokarev German trophy exhibition Moscow Obliasty July - Aug
1943 still Polkovnik

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9soJOa … mp;index=2

His A-20 31 January 1944


Alex  K
WWII Romania Air Campaigns Historian


https://lifesupportintl.wordpress.com/2 … s-in-wwii/

Отредактированно arrow1 (05.06.2016 12:15:07)

 

#134 07.06.2016 10:42:51

arrow1
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Re: Гибель генерал-майора авиации Токарева Н.А. в 1944 на ЧФ.

Good luck with your Romanian friends Tovarish Morozow

http://radikal.ru/Img/ShowUploadedImg?i … 3ee49f0d6d

 

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