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#1 16.10.2020 22:32:18

HILMI
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Mahmudiye (1828)

1

Юрген написал:

#1468083

"Махмудии" — 128 пушечный, трехдечный и трёхмачтовый линейный корабль Османского морского флота. Корабль была построен в 1829 году морским архитектором Мехметом Калфой и военно-морским инженером Мехметом Эфенди по приказу Махмуда II в Имперском Арсенале, на Золотом Роге в Стамбуле и стал крупнейшим в истории Турции парусным, деревянным линейным кораблём. Дина 76,15 м, ширина 21,22 м, экипаж 1280 матросов и офицеров, вооружение 128 пушек калибром от 3-фунтовых до массивных 500-фунтовых.
Разоружен и списан в 1874 году, но время русско-турецкой войны 1877—1878 годов использовался в качестве войскового транспорта, поскольку у правительства не было достаточного количества транспортных судов. Большой размер сделал его эффективным транспортом благодаря способности нести большое количество солдат. 27 декабря четыре российских минных катера атаковали "Махмудии" и броненосец "Асар-и-Тевфик", когда они были пришвартованы в Батуми, но их атаки не увенчались успехом..

What dimensions did the Mahmudiye galleon actually have? Different measurements are given in different sources. I have written below these different measures quoted in sources. But what could be its true measurements?

Launched 31.12 1828.


Dimensions :

ames Ellswoth de Kay “Sketches of Turkey in 1831 and 1832” New York 1833: 223 x 61-8 x 30 x 26-11/ 27-9 ft., 3934 bm. (68 x 18,8 x 8,2/8,45 m). (74,79 Zira keel).

Sailor Magazine from april 1835, page 243 : 233 x 64-8 x 30 x 26-11/27-7, 3334 bm. (71,02 x 19,71 x 9,14 x 8,20/8,41 m). (78,08 Zira keel).

Deniz Tarihi Arşivi, Asar-ı Atika, demirbaş nr. 497: 214-8 x 59-8 x 29-1 (According to these measurements, the length of the spine is 72 Zira keel).

Zorlu : length 64,48 m (c.85 zira).

Which of these could be the right measurements?


In some sources, the length of the keel of the ship is recorded as 70 zira. However, there is an explanation in a work I found; When the paintings of the ship were examined by Serasker Hüsrev Pasha, it was emphasized that the keel length should be 2 Zira longer. (BOA, HAT, 28367, 29 Z 1243 / 12 Temmuz 1828). This shows that the keel length of the ship is 72 zira. According to my researching, Selimiye Galleon is much bigger than Mahmudiye Galleon. I think the measurements given by the Naval History Archive (Deniz History Archive) are correct. (accepting it in british feet).

Mahmudiye (1828)

Length of Gundeck: 65,43 metre (214 feet 8 inc).
Length of Keel: 54,58 metre. (72 Zira).
Breadth: 18,19 metre. (59 feet 8 inc).
Depth in Hold: 8,86 (29 feet 1 inc) metre.
TONAJ: 3.387 ton.

Armament in 1829.

Lower Gun Deck: 34x11 okka (British 31 pounder) = 34 cannons.
Middle Gun Deck: 2x0,5 Cantar (British 62 pounder); 32x11 okka (British 31 pounder) = 34 Cannons.
Upper Gun Deck: 34x9 okka (British 25 pounder) = 34 cannons.
Quarterdeck: 20x14 okka (British 40 Pounder carronade) = 20 Cannons.
Forecastle: 6x14 okka (British 40 Pounder carronade) = 6 Cannons.

Total 128 cannons.
Firepower on a broadside: 923,62 kg.

Personel:
1.230 (1832-33).
1.177 (1833-34).
1.276 (1835-36).

Source: Deniz Tarihi Arşivi, Asar-ı Atika, demirbaş nr. 497; Hacer Bulgurcuoğlu, Efsane Gemi Mahmudiye Kalyonu, Dz.K.K.lığı Deniz Basımevi, İstanbul 2006, s.44.

You can see the dimensions of Mahmudiye galleon in the picture both with the English system and the Turkish system.

https://b.radikal.ru/b13/2010/3c/9b16ba4a49b2.jpg

https://a.radikal.ru/a17/2010/ba/ed4ff617cde9.jpg

Отредактированно HILMI (17.10.2020 15:07:41)

 

#2 16.10.2020 23:03:10

Эд
Адмиралъ, лучший исследователь 2009
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anna3 stas3b
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Re: Mahmudiye (1828)

Efsane Gemi, Mahmudiye Kalyonu (2006, 2009):
Istanbul Deniz Muzesi:
214.8 kademx59.8x29.1x28.3=5553 T.
Bahriye Muzesi Katalogu:
201.5 kademx56x28x25.5

Kadem is greater than foot = 37.5 cm.

 

#3 16.10.2020 23:40:53

HILMI
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Re: Mahmudiye (1828)

Эд написал:

#1471938
Efsane Gemi, Mahmudiye Kalyonu (2006, 2009):
İstanbul Deniz
Müzesi : 214.8 kademx59.8x29.1x28.3 = 5553 T.
Bahriye
Müzesi Katalogu: 201.5 kademx56x28x25.5

Kadem ayaktan büyüktür = 37.5 cm.

1 mimar arşını = 2 kadem; 1 kadem = 12 parmak; 1 parmak = 12 hat; 1 hat = 12 nokta.

If it is based on this value, what will be the keel length and tonnage of the ship? (If this is the kadem, it should be 37.9 cm. But I will calculate with 37,5 cm).

Let's calculate.

Length of Gundeck: 80,55 metre (214,8 kadem).
Length of Keel: 67,10 metre. (from formule). (88,52 Zira).
Breadth: 22,42 metre. (59,8 kadem).
Depth in Hold: 10,91 metre (29,1 kadem).
TONAJ: 6.338 ton.

Length of Gundeck: 75,56 metre (201,5 kadem). (247,91 feet).
Length of Keel: 63 metre. (from formule). (83 Zira).
Breadth: 21 metre. (56 kadem). (68,9 feet).
Depth in Hold: 10,5 metre (28 kadem). (34,45 feet).
TONAJ: 5.216 ton.

70 or 72 zira it is not possible for a galleon to be 214,8 or 201,5 kadem long. If the rates written in the sources of Western countries are correct, the keel of the ship should be 75 or 78 zira.

These measurements did not make sense to me. There is a huge discrepancy between measurements. These rates are not realistic. The amount of personnel and weapons available in the Mahmudiye galleon show that it can only be close to the Selimiye galleon. I also found the dimensions of the Selimiye galleon in terms of zira. Selimiye galleon has personel of 1,500 and heavier weapons, while keel is 73,5 zira, its tonnage is around 3,750 tons. Mahmudiye galleon became famous in the Crimean War. The fame that spread among the people after this war must have been the source of exaggerated figures about its dimensions. However, in terms of weapons and personnel, it was a little smaller than the Selimiye galleon. Moreover, the timber used in its construction was not suitable and started to rot in the year it was built. If the Mahmudiye galleon has almost twice the tonnage of the Selimiye galleon, does it make sense to carry less weight? I calculated the number you gave before. I used the kadem value of 0.375, but it turned out to be absurd. When I used the kadem value 0.3048, I got a logical result. I think the measurements given for Mahmudiye galleon may be in English Feet.

Please look "Tonaj Yükü" (Tonnage load).
Selimiye: 0,298 ton.
Mahmudiye:0,167 ton.

Please see this comparison. Do it make sense?

NOTE: Mr. ED. You are a very knowledgeable person, I learned a lot from your posts in this Forum. Thank you.


https://c.radikal.ru/c40/2010/16/e1281780702b.jpg

https://d.radikal.ru/d18/2010/52/dd3ea840c742.jpg

Отредактированно HILMI (17.10.2020 14:55:08)

 

#4 17.10.2020 22:28:19

Эд
Адмиралъ, лучший исследователь 2009
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anna3 stas3b
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Re: Mahmudiye (1828)

Idris Bostan, Osmanlilar ve Denizp. p. 160-161 shows Selimiye (L. 22 Feb 1797) as a 4-decker - number of gunports 32+34+36+38=140, there is a half-model at the Istanbul Naval Museum with 70 ports on side, looks similar to the French Royal Louyis 116 of 1759, probably, Le Brun had the drawings of this  ship only, looks bigger than Mahmudiye, but seems to be unstable, made one voyage to Alexandria in 1801 before rebuilding.
Ahmet Guleryuz, Ottoman Sailing Ships from Galleys to Galleons (2005) says that Selimiye keel length of Selimiye was of 62 ziraa (=758 mm), that of Mahmudiye - 64 ziraa.

 

#5 17.10.2020 23:20:20

HILMI
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Откуда: İzmir - Türkiye
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Re: Mahmudiye (1828)

Эд написал:

#1472080
Idris Bostan, Osmanlilar ve Denizp. p. 160-161 shows Selimiye (L. 22 Feb 1797) as a 4-decker - number of gunports 32+34+36+38=140, there is a half-model at the Istanbul Naval Museum with 70 ports on side, looks similar to the French Royal Louyis 116 of 1759, probably, Le Brun had the drawings of this  ship only, looks bigger than Mahmudiye, but seems to be unstable, made one voyage to Alexandria in 1801 before rebuilding.
Ahmet Guleryuz, Ottoman Sailing Ships from Galleys to Galleons (2005) says that Selimiye keel length of Selimiye was of 62 ziraa (=758 mm), that of Mahmudiye - 64 ziraa.

If the kadem length is 37.5 cm or 37.9 cm, 62 or 64 zira values is very small values. I did my calculations above. I am sure that my tonnage calculation sheets are correct. I've tested it on many galleons. I made calculations for French ships. I think the dimensions given below are realistic and that the Mahmudiye galleon cannot be bigger than the Selimiye galleon. It should be a little smaller than I understand from the number of weapons and personnel it carries. I think our historians have been sloppy in this regard.

The first Selimiye galleon, built in 1797, is certainly smaller than the Mahmudiye galleon, but the second Selimiye galleon built in 1808 is larger.

for Selimiye (1808):

Zorlu : 147 x 50 x 25 x 23,5 (displacement) kadem. (zirai:73,5 keel x 25 beam x 12,5 Dh. x 11,75 mean Dr.).

Эд написал:

#1472099
the French Royal Louyis 116 of 1759, probably, Le Brun had the drawings of this  ship only

You are right about this. I measured this galleon and it is a 68 zira galleon in the Ottoman system. The first Selimiye galleon is a 67 zira galleon. It probably has the same drawings and weapons. After all, the number of personnel and the number of weapons cannot be considered separately. You can decrease the number of soldiers and increase the number of weapons. The first Selimiye galleon can carry 132 cannons easily with 1,200 personnel. 132-guns in 1799 (British ambassador letter). My guess is: 32x34x34x32 = 132 cannon.

Based on these data, the lengths and tonnages of these three ships:

Selimiye (1808) 73,5 Zira. 3.750 Ton.
Mahmudiye (1828): 72 Zira. 3.400 Tons.
Selimiye (1797): 67 Zira. 2.650 Tons.

https://d.radikal.ru/d18/2010/52/dd3ea840c742.jpg

https://b.radikal.ru/b35/2010/8d/fbd6063be8db.jpg

https://b.radikal.ru/b12/2010/04/44dd135cd38f.jpg

Отредактированно HILMI (Вчера 08:49:13)

 

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