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#851 27.06.2021 17:36:25

FOBOS.DEMOS
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gardemarin
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Re: Ютландский бой

Prinz Eugen написал:

#1509211
ЖБД машины "Блюхера" за первую половину января должен был сохраниться.

А почему за первую половину и именно января? В датах БД ПМВ я плаваю...


С ув. Вячеслав

 

#852 27.06.2021 17:57:50

Prinz Eugen
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Re: Ютландский бой

FOBOS.DEMOS написал:

#1509217
А почему за первую половину и именно января? В датах БД ПМВ я плаваю...

Потому что бой у Доггер-банки был 24-го января 1915-го года.


Ubi Sabaudia ibi victoria

 

#853 27.06.2021 18:20:58

FOBOS.DEMOS
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gardemarin
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Re: Ютландский бой

Prinz Eugen написал:

#1509221
Потому что бой у Доггер-банки был 24-го января 1915-го года.

Ага - ЖБД ГМУ за пол месяца перед Д-Б. ЯСН.


С ув. Вячеслав

 

#854 29.06.2021 15:52:24

komo78
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Re: Ютландский бой

Кстати , а умей немцы в массированную торпедную стрельбу залповую + торпеды кислородные (скажем  торпеда на эсминцах-крл имела 50% кислорода в баллоне, а подлодки и подводные ТА кэпиталшипов 75-100% кислорода ), и скажем скорость в среднем на 5% больше и дальность на 10-15% выше . Как бы тогда столкновение главных сил развивалост бы . В реале и так часть торпед при атаке торпедной минных флотилий при поддержке ЛКР и КРЛ до британской линии дошли несмотря на отворот от торпед . А если более массированный залп раза эдак в 2-3 раза больше, торпеды более дальнобойные и менее заметные из за меньшей пузырьковости . Смотриш, не один "Мальборо" словил бы ., а с парочкой утопленых ЛК и 2-3 поврежденными  желание резко сокращать дистанцию для решительного боя артиллериского , коим и так Джелико не горел не желая рисковать еще больше увяло бы .

 

#855 29.06.2021 17:43:51

Prinz Eugen
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Re: Ютландский бой

komo78 написал:

#1509553
Кстати , а умей немцы в массированную торпедную стрельбу залповую + торпеды кислородные (скажем  торпеда на эсминцах-крл имела 50% кислорода в баллоне, а подлодки и подводные ТА кэпиталшипов 75-100% кислорода ), и скажем скорость в среднем на 5% больше и дальность на 10-15% выше .

Если бы у бабушки было...


Ubi Sabaudia ibi victoria

 

#856 29.06.2021 20:59:57

UBL
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Вебсайт

Re: Ютландский бой

Ну да, немцы даже калибр артиллерии миноносцев принесли в жертву торпедному оружию...
Но не взлетело, когда надо было взлететь....

 

#857 30.06.2021 15:20:15

komo78
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let
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Re: Ютландский бой

Вот и странно что не взлетело . Насколько понимаю разница в вооружение у юританского и германского эсминца близкого ви , у англичан 4" арта и 2*2 533-мм ТА , а у германца  88-мм арта и  2*2 500-мм Та + побортно 2*1 поворотных ТА для стрельбы ночной по внезапно появившимся целям на острых углах .
А скажем альтернативные эсминцы из задела экспортного для РИФ  аналогом если не  аналогом "Симикадзе" то по крайней мере американских гладкопалубников построили бы . или минимум 2*3  600-мм ТА поворотных .

 

#858 30.06.2021 18:12:43

mister X
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Re: Ютландский бой

FOBOS.DEMOS написал:

#1509216
А кто-то искал немецкие ЖБД или британские логбуки?

Собственно КТВ есть на все корабли Хиппера. На Блюхер КТВ сохранился с 31.7.14 до 15.01.15. Есть КТВ Мольтке, Зейдлитца, Дерфлингера ну и легких крейсеров, правда частью рукописные.

 

#859 01.07.2021 13:33:08

FOBOS.DEMOS
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gardemarin
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Re: Ютландский бой

mister X написал:

#1509774
Блюхер КТВ сохранился с 31.7.14 до 15.01.15

глянуть бы его.


С ув. Вячеслав

 

#860 16.07.2021 02:10:05

Nemo-800
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Re: Ютландский бой

1

Описание потопления  Индефатигебла.

Just posted this translation of gunnery officer Mahrholz’s account of Von der Tann’s engagement with Indefatigable at Jutland on TMP and thought it would also be of interest to this forum as well -

“After my relief, I went to my cabin to rest a bit after my watch.  I took a book in hand, yet hardly had I begun to read when the signal “Clear for Action” sounded throughout the ship.  I was on the bridge in a bound.  Our cabins lay forward in Von der Tann, not far from the bridge.  The first “Klarmeldungen” of the “Gefechtstellen” were already coming into the artillery control position.  I made a short voice check on the telephones connecting myself with the range clock, “Peilscheibe”, assistant observer, and third artillery officer in the aft artillery control position, and tested the fall of shot timer.  Then I had time to make inquiries as to what was happening, but I did not find out much.  The light cruisers had reported an encounter with the enemy.  For the moment, only light forces had been observed, but after previous experiences they sought security behind the battle cruisers.  With full power, the battle cruisers ran toward the reported position and soon our light forces could be seen on the horizon in battle with a yet invisible enemy.  One could distinctly see the flashes of the salvos and splashes of the enemy shells.  Soon the picture further clarified itself.  Besides the cruisers engaged ahead, six smoke clouds came into view in the southwest.  The apparent smoke clouds neared and were soon identified from the spotting top as battle cruisers.

Now it become serious, no longer a question of chasing light cruisers, but a do or die encounter of equal opponents.  It dawned upon some that this was the commencement of a battle, but no one supposed that the entire English fleet was in the vicinity.  This time it was quite different from earlier occasions.  Our entire fleet stood only fifty sea miles astern of us and that gave a great feeling of strength and confidence.  Each man on board wholeheartedly desired an encounter with the enemy.  Many eager eyes gazed through their high-powered binoculars and telescopes to make out details.  Soon the ships were also recognized from below as battle cruisers bearing down in two columns upon the German ships.  While we still steered a northwest course, the English admiral formed his line on a southerly course, by so doing revealing an intention to cut off our battle cruisers from our rear support.  Admiral Hipper followed this action, which gave him the best opportunity to draw the enemy force toward our main body in the south.  Now both opponents were running abreast on diverging courses.  Soon an additional squadron was sighted in the further distance, which later proved to be 5th Battle Squadron. With four ships of the Queen Elizabeth class, at that time the most formidable warships in the world, with an armament of 38cm caliber.  It also made the English superiority more than double.  But all the same there was no man on board who did not burn with desire to close with the enemy.

There was an enormous stress upon all feelings, which ached for release, and this pressure was only increased through the delay in the order to open fire.  Long ago had I taken my post at the director-scope and directed my battery and ranging instruments upon the enemy; through the 15x magnification of my optics, I could clearly make out the enemy ships.  “Fire to be distributed from the left” was called by the signals petty officer through the view slit and I slowly counted the line of opponents through my telescope.  According to the rules, our ship, as the end ship in line, was to engage two opponents, since we would be pitted against the fifth and sixth enemy ships; but the medium artillery could not yet reach due to the great range, so I actually had to split my main battery, two turrets forward and two turrets aft.  But that meant only two shots in each salvo and that did not appeal to me.  So I decided to keep my battery together and first attend to one opponent and then the other.  A wild decisiveness clutched at me to turn this decision into actuality.  But now there was time and leisure to look upon the enemy through the telescope.  Like unnatural monsters, the ships thrust through the water.  I could clearly make out each action on the ships – the signal hoists and after that the rotation of the heavy turrets and the elevation of the gun barrels, which presented us with a view such as one had been accustomed to from many battle exercises, only then harmless twinkles had flashed from the muzzles.

The rangefinders continually metered ranges into the fire control apparatus and when I queried the rangefinder officer, he informed me beamingly that the measurements were excellent, the instruments correlating within 100 meters.  So much the better for ranging in, I thought, but I still planned on an 8 hm fork to allow for the influence of the day over such an enormous distance.  The range clock was set and connected to the gun-sight telegraph.  With complete calm the “Seitenverschiebung” (deflection?) was calculated and corresponding orders were given to the guns so that fire could be opened at a moment’s notice.  One really had the feeling as with an important gunnery exercise – a long steady preparation without useless twisting and turning, which promoted good calculations and estimates.  A long series of comparative measurements had to produce a good initial range.  No haste or delay in the transmission of orders or at the guns created a good feeling in the heart of the gunner.  The loading of the guns had long ago been ordered.  In the turrets the gun crews had rammed home into the breeches the projectiles, upon which all sorts not very friendly greetings for the English had been chalked.  162 hm had just been calculated, when, like a deliverance -”F.D., Open Fire” sounded and in the same second the first salvo cracked out against the enemy.  Simultaneously, one saw gun flashes from the guns on the opposing side and the rolling yellow-brown smoke clouds rise above the ships.  When our first salvo was out, I focused my entire energy in my eyes so that no movement of the enemy, no impact (fall of shot) of my battery might escape my attention.  The center of the one-sixteenth graduated scale lay precisely beneath the middle stack of the battle cruiser “Indefatigable”, whose name I admittedly did not know at the time; we were only able to recognize the class.  I concentrated, as I had become accustomed by gunnery exercises, my chief interest in the forward part of the opponent, for at the bow any speed change is best detected and at the bridge any course change is best detected.  Under certain circumstances the target may maneuver between the splashes of laterally missing projectiles, thereby making possible an observation of the fall of shot as “over”; this is why the bow of the opponent should be kept under especially sharp observation by the gunnery officer.

Simultaneously with the “quacking” of the fall of shot clock, four enormous fountains spurted up over there.  The deflection was correct, with the impacts falling “over” acceptable in line with the after superstructure.  “8 Down, 4 more Left, one Salvo” was my initial correction.  During the flight of the salvo, I compared the range-finder measurement to that of the fire control predictor and found that they agreed precisely.  With the validation of the measurement, I now awaited the fork and four tall water columns sprang up, for a moment obliterating from view the entire middle part of the target.  All four were clearly discernable on the surface of the water and also short within an acceptable limit.  “4 Up, one Salvo” and again, after the time of flight period, a salvo struck near the opponent – two impacts short, one long, the fourth unable to be seen and presumably a hit, for the “Listenfuhrer” confirmed to me that four shots had fallen in the salvo.  Because the AP shells exploded in the interior of the opponent and the effect of a hit was only visible if its destructive effect expanded from the interior to the exterior of the target, I was wary about declaring a hit and held myself rigorously to the observational standard.  But the young lieutenant in the spotting top felt it was a hit.  “Straddle, Gut Schnell” was the order after the splashes.  Now we shot salvoes at short intervals, often with more than one salvo in the air simultaneously.
The enemy was firing back at a slower rate, and we could clearly identify their muzzle flashes.  Whoever was not occupied at that moment was able to track their fall of shot by the clock.  But the enemy’s shooting was poor due to his slow rate of fire.  Possibly he was hamperedby lower visibility – in these hazy conditions our light paint paid off.

Blutarski Note – It is also possible that the rapid and accurate fire of Von der Tann during this period was interfering with Indefatigable’s spotting.  Another possibility, circumstantially suggested by the gunnery logs of the surviving BCF battle-cruisers, is that Indefatigable was ranging by double-salvoes, which could have created an impression of a slow rate of fire. 

According to the observations of our light cruisers, the enemy’s shots were all significantly over, such that at times the vessels behind us were endangered.  Any confusion between our hits and the enemy’s muzzle flashes could be ruled out since the latter was accompanied by yellowish/brownish smoke.  In contrast, our hits were characterized by a bright glow only in the event that our armor-piercing shells failed to penetrate before exploding.

By now, the shooting of Von der Tann was very effective, and from time to time the enemy was completely hidden behind the splashes.  “Indefatigable” seemed to cease fire and tried to get out of the firing line (line of fire?) by zig-zagging, but our good optics could detect any of its movements immediately.  When the enemy veered off, I increased the range by 1 hm (100 meters) and decreased accordingly when he veered in.  I moved the “Schieber” [?] slightly, in accordance with the direction of the bow’s moves.  During the flight of the salvo the new “calibration” (calculation?) for the “Anzeiger” was ordered, and immediately received the “Gang” [?] and “Schieber” for the new location of the enemy.  At most times, the Schieber coincided with the “freihandig abgegriffen” [free-hand estimate?] value.  Since the position constantly changed [Standortanderung?] we did not drag on the “Gang”[?].  The artillery communication officer worked splendidly, the “Aufsatztelegraph”[?] had the correct new [E.U.] after each turn of the enemy.  There was no way out.  Our battery stayed on the target and the quick succession of salvos was barely interrupted.  I became impatient and ordered a personal command which I had developed during exercises, and which was not written in any gunnery instruction: “Faster!”.  This implied that the man at the “E Watch” [/] should strive for the maximum possible firing rate without awaiting the gun signal for readiness, and the salvoes went out in an incredible rush.

The deadly blow struck the enemy 14 minutes after opening fire.  I looked through the “Richtungsweisersehrohr” [fire director telescope?] and was the arrival of a salvo, followed by a gigantic explosion in the aft turret.  A bright sheet of flame shot out of the turret roof and expanded along the entire aft section.  Debris whirled through the air, possibly fragments of the turret’s roof.  The next salvo hit the ship forward and finished it off.  A monstrous black cloud rose into the air to twice the height of the topmast and masked the enemy completely – apparently we have hit an oil tank.

Blutarski Note – An odd reaction.  But Mahrholz was the first German to witness such a catastrophic event during the war.

We shot another salvo into the cloud, but most likely it missed since our opponent has already slopped below the waves. The observing officer assured me that the enemy has been sunk, but I still was skeptical since I knew how easily one can be mistaken at these distances, and how tempting it is to visualize one’s wish.  Only after the smoke was gone was I too convinced of the sinking and reported accordingly to the captain.  News of our enemy’s defeat spread quickly below decks and I heard many “Hoorays” in the headphones.


Это надо помнить и,..., не кидать снарядов впустую, а исправлять каждую наводку по получаемым результатам. Вице-Адмирал З.П. Рожественский.
Скорость хода или тоже- сила машины составляет то оружие, от которого успех плавания и сражения зависит несравненно более, чем от панцирной одежды корабля. Контр-Адмирал В.П. Верховской.
The word ‘nausea’ derives from the Greek word for ship.

 

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