Судя по немецкому КТВ морского учебного командования в Констанце в 15.55 состоялся налет 7 бомбардировщиков, из которых шесть, якобы, были сбиты немецкими истребителями. По советским данным (Хроника) в налете принимали участие 8 ДБ-3 из 2-го мтап. Согласно книге учета полковых потерь в воздушном бою был сбит лишь один самолет (командир экипажа л-т Синельников). Ни о каких других потерях данных нет. Кроме того, ДБ-3 никогда не служили в 40-м бап.
Самолеты 40-го бап 8 июля не атаковали Констанцу, а бомбили румынские корабли и береговые объекты в Тульче. При этом один СБ был потерян от истребителей противника. О потерях 78-й аэ мне ничего не известно.

Of course the Germans meant SB and not DB-3F and I agree
about 40 BAP aircraft type which must have been on that
day either SB or PE-2.  I doubt that the JG77 have mistaken
their losses roaster of July 8,1941.

According my data from OBD, the BBC bomber groups had no
loses on that day,unless OBD omitted them.  The 8 DB-3 were
claimed by III./JG at 18:10 pm area Iasi, Balti, Constanza
and it says that out of 15 DB-3 , 8 were shot down.  Ubben and Hackler
didn't claim anything on July 8,41. The JG77 Internet records may
contain mistakes, please state your source of information.

From  JG52  history book and JG52 website,there is nothing mentioned
about July 8,41 , therefore you need to mention the source
of your information

The JG77 volume II shows the chart operational airfields of  II./  III./
7. / 8./ 9./ and 2 LG.2 , I.(J)/LG 2  period Juni-August 1941 .

Отредактированно arrow1 (25.06.2012 13:43:02)

The books are the history books of JG77 by J. Prien published 1993
the 4 volumes are in German language which I also fluently speak and
are called :

EINSATZ DES JG 77 VON 1939  BIS 1945

Nach Dokumenten, Berichten und Erinnerungen

All 4 books containing over 5000 pages & hundred of photos
and thats the full history of JG77 partially also LG2 and seems
to be very accurate as they match my US , Soviet
and UK air activities research which I started 19
years ago.

Did you you mean that Prien also wrote the history book
of JG52 ? If he did indeed , pse give me the full title
of the book is am not aware of. My book on JG52 is called
JG52 The Experts by John Weal

What is IBID ?  what is the full title ?

The website you mentioned is known to me
and it subject to various errors.

Отредактированно arrow1 (26.06.2012 00:58:31)

Ok thank you for the info though as on previous
topics you rush to conclussions and you touch again
hypothetical topics ,which I am not keen to discuss.

First of , the history of the Lufwafffe was never my main
topic and when you say all knew about  these publications
you are totally wrong.  Most of the Russian historians
I talked to and still talk to , not even sufficiently know about their own
WWII Aviation History  , not to talk about other histories in WWII 
( Hazanov   &  Miroslav not falling in this category). In fact also you
didn't know that Prien wrote 4 large volumes of the JG77 which are
the main mile stone of the JG77 history.

Regarding  Denes & Karlenko who wrote two volumes about BBC/VMF
they contain duzins and duzins  of mistakes and hundreds of grammer errors 
while most of the stuff they have copied from Hazanov publications
in Avia Master , though yes they managed to  publish interesting photos, that's
all.  Denes publications about Rumanian and Hungarian AF's in WWII are
more successful then his Karlenko venture . Bergstroem stuff seems to be more
in line and aligned with the history of WWII.

My research started with Ops Halpro ( if you know what that is ) 1942 ,than Operation
Tidalwave 1943, then Rumania bombings of the 15th AF into Rumania in 1944, RAF 205th
GP into Rumania 1944 . then Operation Frantic from Poltawa 1944 and ending
with BBC / VMF Ops into Rumania 1941-1943-1944.

Lufwaffe history is just a colateral subject associated with the books I am planning
to publish .

I think I am very satisfied with my knowledge and I don't feel I have
any gaps in my data base which in case they may exist , they would
be irrelevant for my books which are due to appear in the future.

Отредактированно arrow1 (26.06.2012 16:41:14)

It was meant dozen and not duzin ( type error )

Hazanov in similar to Miroslaw have access to important documents
of the Soviet military archives of WWII, and that's the key in starting
books and historical research. Fact is that Hazanov published books
also in the West such as  LA-5/7 along with Medveev, as good as Yefim Gordon, Oleg
Rastrenin,Mihail Maslov etc and I qualified his book as excellent as good as
Torpedo / Morozow .

I was in touch with Karlenko and I disagree about the comparison
to Hazanov and his historical data base .

It will take me considerable time  to start looking for the errors on Denes
Karlenko Barbarossa books, especially that at the moment I am
lacking the time due to many other activities, though when the
time will afford ,I will let you know.

Karlenko errors are related to the Constanza,Sulina, Ploesti VMF losses
and mission dates as well fate of some of the crews. Additionally
they have omitted other losses of the BBC & VMF  which are clearly available
on OBD. Further, you not write books in the West in English with
continous spelling errors, thats critical ! Finally I wonder on why Denes
is writting about Soviets when in fact this guy is a convinced Nazi sympathiser
and a Hungarian fascist resident of Canada ......so please give me a brake
about Karlenko and Denes.

As an example of critical errors out of many :

Page 80 , Volume I , Capt Schultz of 2 MTAP didn't crash at all at
Ploesti nor Rumania , nor any of his crew were POW in Rumania,period !

Page 158 ,Volume II ,Lt Skatov did not TARAN nor crash into enemy
artilery positions at all.....absolutely somewhere else !

What would Schultz and Skatov say about this nonsense, if they were alive ?


These are two example of many numerous other , period !

Отредактированно arrow1 (26.06.2012 17:49:24)

Most of your remarks are based on your personal
opinions and less on how the things were and are
of course I read your opinions but their relevance is
questionable having paralles with something childish
you keep preforming on here.

I didn't say that Denes political ambitions were
published on his books, like in many other cases
I have also corresponded with this person
long before he published any of his books  and
long before you red his and Karlenko stuff.

As I mentioned before , I don't have the time
nor interest to justify myself to you with facts about anything
but since you claim to be an expert fact you didn't
prove to me yet , then how about you look for the
errors yourselves  ? You are right not dozen of errors
but as much as over 160  errors or more.

Finally it seems to me that you like to act as  "movie
cesnorship" on here and yet your name is not Miroslaw Morozov
neither you ever proved me being an WWII expert.

My recommandations to you still apply , restudy all your
claims and make claims only when you sure about them,
this reffers also to your previous remarks regarding LG2
on July 26,41, JG77, BBC and VMF etc.

Finally I don't doubt that you extract lots of stuff from Internet
stuff which not appeals to me nor impresses me at all.

Despite your forum credits and your numerous virtual medals
they don't make u in my eyes an Aviation Expert at all , nor the previous
insultations of yours brought you anything so far . Though you are in your
own country forum and are free to provoke and bitch about foreign visitors,
facts which don't really bother me an inch.   Over and Out and good luck to you Sir.


PS : if you are upset with the truth about yourselves, try again
convincing Miroslaw to close my account, maybe this  time
u'll be more lucky and may get you the Aviation
expert title u looking for  .   Finally may I ask you for your age ?

Отредактированно arrow1 (27.06.2012 14:26:16)

Похоже обсуждение исторических вопросов тут исчерпало себя. Ветка закрыта.