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#76 10.07.2020 21:41:23

HILMI
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Re: Победы Ф.Ф. Ушакова на море на фоне турецко-венецианских войн 1684-1718 гг.

Эд написал:

#1145064
1). 61.5 ziraa Kebir uch ahırları (Üç günlük gemi): 14-44 + 16-16; 32-7; 46-3; 4-1 = 112 1500-1300 kişi Bayrak 1 (Kapudan Paşa_
2). 55.5 Edger kuleleri (Burunda Dragon) 6-44 + 24-11; 26-5; 8-3; 6-1.5 = 70
900-750 Riyale Koyu
3 bayrağı 4 ). 55 Sadirgan Kychly: 4-44 + 24-11; 2-7 + 26-5; 10-3 = 66.800-700
Bayrak 2 Kapudan-i Humayun
4). 57.5 Jifte Jeyran Kykly (Kıç tarafında iki ceylan): 6-124 + 24-11; 26-5; 8-3; 6-1.5 = 70 Bayrak 3 Patrona Koyu 9 - = 750
5). 55 Bayaz At Bashly'de: = Sadirgan Kychly 66 750-650
6). 55 Siyat Bashly'de: = Sadirgan Kychly 66 750-650
7). 57.5 Yaldyzly Trabzon Hurması: 4-44 + 26-11; 2-7 + 30-5; 10-3 = 72800-650                         
8). 51 Yilan kulesi: 2-132 + 24-7; 6-9 + 2-1.5 = 34750-650
dokuz). 55 Kula Kulede: 4-44 + 24-11; 2-7 + 26-5; 8-3; 6-1.5 = 66700-600
10). 55 Büyük Gül kuleleri: 26-7; 22-5; 8-3 = 66 Sadirgan Kychly 700-550
11). 53.5 Kyuchyuk Gül kuleleri: 28-7; 26-3; 6-1.5 = 60600-500
12). 53.5 İfrit kuleleri: 28-9; 24-5; 8-3; 2-1.5-62 600-500
13). 51 Zulfikar Kykly: 26-7; 22-5; 8-3 = 56600-500
14). 49 Torba porsiyonları: 26-5; 22-3; 6-1.5 = 54500-375
15). 50 Akşarşal: 26-7; 22-3: 8-1.5 = 56600-500
16). 46 Yıldız Bağchelles: 24-5; 22-3; 8-1.5 = 56 450-350
17). 44 Ai bagcheli: 24-5; 22-3; 8-1.5 = 54 450-350
18). 47.5 Yaldyzly Nar Kykly: 26-5; 28-3 = 54 425-350
19). 45 Kırgız Kushakly: 24-5; 22-3: 6-1.5 = 52 400-350
20). 45 Sari Kushakli: aynı silahlar 400-350
21). 44 Yoshir Kushakli: aynı silahlar 400-350
22). 43 Al Atashi: aynı silahlar 450-300
23). 43 Mavi Arslan kuleleri: 20-5; 20-3; 4-1.5 = 44400-300
24). 43.5 Gyunesh Kykly: 20-5; 22-3; 2-1.5 = 44300-300
25). 41.5 Caravel Kush Bagchelles: 20-5; 20-3; 2-1.5 = 42 300-280
26). 37.5 Yıldız Kykly: 20-3; 16-2; 4-1.5 = 40 300-250
27). 42 Tac kulesi: 20-5; 20-3; 2-1.5 = 42 350-300
28). 53.5 Jifte Teber qyla: 26-7; 18-5; 14-3 = 58600-500
29). 38.5 Caravel Mavi qyqly: 20-3; 16-2; 2-1.5 = 38 250-250
30). 38.5 Siyah Arslan kuleleri: aynı silahlanma 250-250

Where did you find this list?

 

#77 11.07.2020 11:39:29

Эд
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Re: Победы Ф.Ф. Ушакова на море на фоне турецко-венецианских войн 1684-1718 гг.

From books by Emir Yener, Y.A. Aydin.

 

#78 30.11.2020 20:22:23

HILMI
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Re: Победы Ф.Ф. Ушакова на море на фоне турецко-венецианских войн 1684-1718 гг.

Эд написал:

#1145064
1). 61,5 зираа Кебир уч амбарлы (Трехдечный корабль): 14-44+16-16; 32-7; 46-3; 4-1=112 1500-1300 чел. Флаг 1 (капудан-паши_
2). 55,5 Эдждер башлы (Дракон на носу) 6-44+24-11; 26-5; 8-3; 6-1,5=70
900-750 Флаг 4 Рийале-бей
3). 55 Садирган Кычлы: 4-44+24-11; 2-7+26-5; 10-3=66 800-700
Флаг 2 Капудан-и Хумаюн
4). 57,5 Джифте Джейран кычлы (Два джейрана на корме) : 6-124+24-11; 26-5; 8-3; 6-1,5=70 Флаг 3 Патрона-бей-бей  9--=750
5). 55 Бейаз Ат Башлы: =Садирган Кычлы 66 750-650
6). 55 Сийат Ат Башлы: =Садирган Кычлы 66 750-650
7). 57,5 Ялдызлы Хурма: 4-44+26-11; 2-7+30-5; 10-3=72 800-650                         
8). 51 Йылан башлы: 2-132+24-7; 6-9+2-1,5=34 750-650
9). 55 Кула Ат башлы: 4-44+24-11; 2-7+26-5; 8-3; 6-1,5=66 700-600
10). 55 Бюйюк Гюль башлы: 26-7; 22-5; 8-3=66 Садирган Кычлы 700-550
28). 53.5 Djifte Teber kychly: 26-7; 18-5; 14-3 = 58600-500
11). 53,5 Кючюк Гюль башлы: 28-7; 26-3; 6-1,5=60 600-500
12). 53,5 Ифрит башлы: 28-9; 24-5; 8-3; 2-1,5-62 600-500
13). 51 Зульфикар кычлы: 26-7;  22-5; 8-3=56 600-500
15). 50 Акчашарлы: 26-7; 22-3: 8-1,5=56 600-500

Possible sizes and weapons of these galleons: 50 Zira galleons and taller are listed here. Some guns of galleons may have been replaced by smaller numbers but larger caliber guns. for example, 9 caliber guns were removed from the 62 guns ship and 14 caliber guns were installed. The number of weapons has been reduced to 56. (Cedit Esper Kuş Kıçlı). At the beginning of the 18th century, most Turkish galleons larger than 50 zira consisted of ships with 7, 5 and 3 caliber guns. In the 1710s, ships with larger capacities began to be built.


KEBİR ÜÇ AMBARLI (1703) 61,5 Zira. (46,62 meters).

Length of Gundeck: 56.85 meters (Formülden).
Length of Keel: 46.62 meters.
Breadth: 17.06 meters.
Depth of Hold: 6,99 meters (Formülden).
TONAJ (Bruthen): 2.547 ton.
Guns: 14-44+18-16; 32-7; 46-3; 4-1=114. (Taken from archive records). (There were 130 guns in the year it was first builded: 2-44; 30-16; 32-7; 66-3 =130).
Personel: 1500.
Load: 997 tone.

EJDER BAŞLI (1715) 55,5 Zira (42,07 m).

Length of Gundeck: 50,71 meters (From formula).
Length of Keel: 42,07 meters.
Breadth: 14,40 meters.
Depth of Hold: 5,97 meters (From formula).
TONAJ (Bruthen): 1.639 tons.
Guns: 6-44+24-11; 2-7; 28-5; 10-3 = 70.
Personel: 900.
Load: 600 tone.

YALDIZLI HURMA (1715) 57,5 Zira (43,59 m).

Length of Gundeck: 51,77 meters (From formula).
Length of Keel: 43,59 meters.
Breadth: 13,64 meters.
Depth of Hold: 5,74 meters (From formula).
TONAJ (Bruthen): 1.524 tons.
Guns: 6-44+24-11; 2-7; 28-5; 10-3 = 70.
Personel: 750.
Load: 547 tone.

BEYAZ AT BAŞLI (1715) 55 Zira (41,69 m).

Length of Gundeck: 49,88 meters (From formula).
Length of Keel: 41,69 meters.
Breadth: 13,64 meters.
Depth of Hold: 5.70 meters (From formula).
TONAJ (Bruthen): 1.458 tons.
Guns: 4-44+24-11; 2-7; 26-5; 10-3 = 66. (Taken from archive records).
Personel: 750.
Load: 524 tone.

CEDİT ESPER KUŞ KIÇLI (1718) 53,5 Zira (40,55 meters). (This galleon is on the list of galleons on the 1718 expedition).

Length of Gundeck: 48,74 meters (From formula).
Length of Keel: 40,55 meters.
Breadth: 13,64 meters.
Depth of Hold: 5.68 meters (From formula).
TONAJ (Bruthen): 1.418 tons.
Guns: 4-44+22-9; 2-7; 26-5; 8-3 = 62. (Weapons that should normally be found).
Personel: 750.
Load: 491 tone.

YILAN BAŞLI (1714) 51,5 Zira (39,04 m).

Length of Gundeck: 47,23 meters (From formula).
Length of Keel: 39,04 meters.
Breadth: 13,64 meters.
Depth of Hold: 5.64 meters (From formula).
TONAJ (Bruthen): 1.365 tons.
Guns: 2-132+8-44+8-14; 16-3 = 34. (The number of guns of 44, 14, 9, 5 and 3 caliber is an estimate).
Personel: 750.
Load: 449 tone.

BÜYÜK GÜL BAŞLI (1708) 55 Zira (41,69). (I think this galleon is one of the 55 Zira galleons built in 1708).

Length of Gundeck: 49,65 meters (From formula).
Length of Keel: 41,69 meters.
Breadth: 13,27 meters.
Depth of Hold: 5.57 meters (From formula).
TONAJ (Bruthen): 1.378 tons.
Guns: 28-9; 24-5; 8-3 = 60. (Taken from archive records).
Personel: 700.
Load: 453 tone.

KÜÇÜK GÜL BAŞLI (1708) 53 Zira. (40,17 meters). (This galleon can also be worth 53.5 zira. I made my calculations according to a galleon of 53 zira).

Length of Gundeck: 47,68 meters (From formula).
Length of Keel: 40,17 meters. (53 Zira).
Breadth: 12,51 meters.
Depth of Hold: 5.27 meters (From formula).
TONAJ (Bruthen): 1.180 tons.
Guns: 28-7; 20-5; 8-3 = 56. (Taken from archive records in 1708).
Personel: 600.
Load: 380 tone.

AKÇAŞARLI (1708) 50 Zira (37,90 meters). (Cedit Akçaşehir).

Length of Gundeck: 45,56 meters (From formula).
Length of Keel: 37,90 meters.
Breadth: 12,76 meters.
Depth of Hold: 5.31 meters (From formula).
TONAJ (Bruthen): 1.159 tons.
Guns: 26-7; 20-5; 6-3 = 52. (Taken from archive records in 1708).
Personel: 600.
Load: 369 tone.

ZÜLFİKAR KIÇLI (1708) 51 Zira (38,66 meters). (There is a possibility that this galleon is 51,5 Zira long).

Length of Gundeck: 46,17 meters (From formula).
Length of Keel: 38,66 meters.
Breadth: 12,51 meters.
Depth of Hold: 5.24 meters (From formula).
TONAJ (Bruthen): 1.136 tons.
Guns: 26-7; 28-3 = 54.
Personel: 600.
Load: 357 tone.

Note: In the archive records, 51 zira armament of galleons: (in 1708 = 26-7; 28-3 = 54). (in 1740 = 2-22 + 24-7; 34-3 = 60).

Note: In 1145/1733, Küçük Gül Başlı and Zülfikar Kıçlı galleons were given to Cezayir-i Garb Quarry with 112 cannons. (BOA, MAD 10326, s. 129-130 (13 S. 1145/29 Ocak 1733); D. BSM 1713, s. 2). According to this historical record there should be a total of 56 guns per galleon. (56 + 56).

Отредактированно HILMI (08.12.2020 15:38:29)

 

#79 01.12.2020 21:30:25

HILMI
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Re: Победы Ф.Ф. Ушакова на море на фоне турецко-венецианских войн 1684-1718 гг.

Эд написал:

#1145064
14). 49 Серви багчели: 26-5; 22-3; 6-1,5=54  500-375
16). 46 Йылдыз багчели: 24-5; 22-3; 8-1,5=56 450-350
17). 44 Ай багчели: 24-5; 22-3; 8-1,5=54 450-350
18). 47,5 Йалдызлы Нар кычлы: 26-5; 28-3=54 425-350
19). 45 Кырмызы кушаклы: 24-5; 22-3: 6-1,5=52 400-350
20). 45 Сари кушаклы: то же вооружение 400-350
21). 44 Йешир кушаклы: то же вооружение 400-350
22). 43 Ал Ат башлы: то же вооружение 450-300
23). 43 Мави Арслан башлы:  20-5; 20-3; 4-1,5=44 400-300
24). 43,5 Гюнеш кычлы: 20-5; 22-3; 2-1,5=44 300-300
25). 41,5 Каравеле Куш багчели: 20-5; 20-3; 2-1,5=42 300-280
26). 37,5 Йылдыз кычлы: 20-3; 16-2; 4-1,5=40 300-250
27). 42 Тадж башлы: 20-5; 20-3; 2-1,5=42 350-300
29). 38,5 Каравеле Мави кычлы: 20-3; 16-2; 2-1,5=38 250-250
30). 38,5 Сийах Арслан башлы: то же вооружение 250-250

Possible sizes and weapons of these galleons: 49 Zira galleon and shorter ones are listed. 7, 5, 3, 1.5 and 1 caliber guns were used in these galleons. The number of staff was between 500 and 300. When I calculated the loads (weapons and personnel) these galleons carried, I realized that between 43,5 and 49 zira, all galleons must have the same body width.

SERVİ BAĞÇELİ (1715) 49 Zira (37,14 meters).

Length of Gundeck: 44,19 meters (From formula).
Length of Keel: 37,14 meters.
Breadth: 11,75 meters.
Depth of Hold: 4.94 meters (From formula).
TONAJ (Bruthen): 963 tons.
Guns: 26-5; 22-3; 1,5-6 = 54. (This is an estimate).
Personel: 500.
Load: 296 tones.

YALDIZLI NAR KIÇLI (1715) 47 Zira (35,63 meters).

Length of Gundeck: 42,68 meters (From formula).
Length of Keel: 35,63 meters.
Breadth: 11,75 meters.
Depth of Hold: 4.91 meters (From formula).
TONAJ (Bruthen): 924 tons.
Guns: 26-5; 28-3 = 54. (The armament of a 47 zira galleon in 1708).
Personel: 425.
Load: 274 tones.

KIRMIZI KUŞAKLI (1717) 45 Zira (34,11 meters).

Length of Gundeck: 41,16 meters (From formula).
Length of Keel: 34,11 meters.
Breadth: 11,75 meters.
Depth of Hold: 4.87 meters (From formula).
TONAJ (Bruthen): 884 tons.
Guns: 6-7; 18-5; 24-3 = 48. (The armament of a 45.5 zira galleon in 1708).
Personel: 400.
Load: 257 tones.

YEŞİL KUŞAKLI (1717) 44 Zira (33,35 M).

Length of Gundeck: 40,40 meters (From formula).
Length of Keel: 33,35 meters.
Breadth: 11,75 meters.
Depth of Hold: 4.85 meters (From formula).
TONAJ (Bruthen): 865 tons.
Guns: 26-5; 20-3 = 46. (It is the armament of 44 Zira galleon in the document dated 1708).
Personel: 400.
Load: 250 tones.

MAVİ ASLAN BAŞLI (1717) 43,5 Zira (32,97 M).

Length of Gundeck: 40,03 meters (From formula).
Length of Keel: 32,97 meters.
Breadth: 11,75 meters.
Depth of Hold: 4.84 meters (From formula).
TONAJ (Bruthen): 855 tons.
Guns: 24-5; 18-3; 4-1 = 46. (It is the armament of 43,5 Zira galleon in the document dated 1708).
Personel: 400.
Load: 244 tones.

KÜREKLİ KALYON (1704) 45 Zira (34,11 M). (This galleon is on the list of galleons on the 1718 expedition).

Length of Gundeck: 40,02 meters (From formula).
Length of Keel: 34,11 meters.
Breadth: 9,85 meters.
Depth of Hold: 4.20 meters (From formula).
TONAJ (Bruthen): 622 tons.
Guns: 20-3; 20-1 = 40. (Taken from archive records).
Personel: 350.
Load: 179 tones.

Note: The ship deck width can be between 9.5 meters and 10 meters. The oared galleon was transformed from a galley. Turkish galleys were 40 meters tall according to historical records. in tonnage spreadsheet I prepared, the required width to give the ship deck length 40 meters is 9.85 meters.

MAVİ KIÇLI KARAVELE (1715) 38,5 Zira (29,18 meters).

Length of Gundeck: 35,40 meters (From formula).
Length of Keel: 29,18 meters.
Breadth: 10,36 meters.
Depth of Hold: 4.27 meters (From formula).
TONAJ (Bruthen): 588 tons.
Guns: 4-5; 18-3; 18-1,5 = 40. (It is the armament of 38 Zira galleon in the document dated 1708).
Personel: 300.
Load: 170 tones.

YILDIZ KIÇLI (1717) 37,5 Zira (28,43 M).

Length of Gundeck: 34,64 meters (From formula).
Length of Keel: 28,43 meters.
Breadth: 10,36 meters.
Depth of Hold: 4.25 meters (From formula).
TONAJ (Bruthen): 573 tons.
Guns: 20-3; 18-1,5; 2-1 = 40. (It is the armament of 37 Zira galleon in the document dated 1708).
Personel: 300.
Load: 165 tones.

Note: Although the document shows 2 caliber cannons, there is no 2 caliber cannon ammunition in the ammunition records. There may be wrong spelling during the reading of the document. It is a highly probable 1.5 caliber weapon.

Да, это в основном приблизительные цифры. Но я думаю, это очень близко к реальности. Потому что я делаю свои оценки, глядя на количество личного состава и вооружений, которые, как предполагается, будут нести эти корабли, и на технические характеристики кораблей других стран, построенных в тот же период.

Отредактированно HILMI (08.12.2020 11:27:10)

 

#80 02.12.2020 23:10:35

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Re: Победы Ф.Ф. Ушакова на море на фоне турецко-венецианских войн 1684-1718 гг.

1

На этом форуме я узнал кое-что действительно хорошее. История и особенно морская история - мое хобби. Но я просто не хочу учиться с простой стороны, как будто там была война, и были корабли и солдаты. Мне нравится исследовать техническую и логистическую сторону войны. Знания увеличиваются по мере того, как люди делятся ими друг с другом.

 

#81 04.12.2020 02:10:27

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Re: Победы Ф.Ф. Ушакова на море на фоне турецко-венецианских войн 1684-1718 гг.

1

Let me show you how realistic my predictions are with an example.

ENGLISH 1733 ESTABLISMENT 50 GUNS.

Length of Gundeck: 40,84 meters.
Length of Keel: 32,99 meters.
Breadth: 11,73 meters.
Depth of Hold: 4.80 meters.
TONAJ (Bruthen): 853 tons.
Guns: 22-18 pdrs.; 22-9 pdrs.; 6-6 pdrs. = 50.
Personel: 300.
Load: 240 tons.

YEŞİL KUŞAKLI (1717) 44 Zira (33.35 M).

Length of Gundeck: 40,40 meters (From formula).
Length of Keel: 33,35 meters.
Breadth: 11,75 meters.
Depth of Hold: 4.85 meters (From formula).
TONAJ (Bruthen): 865 tons.
Guns: 26-5; 20-3 = 46. (It is the armament of 44 Zira galleon in the document dated 1708).
Personel: 400.
Load: 250 tons.

https://a.radikal.ru/a30/2012/fd/25931e910921.jpg

https://d.radikal.ru/d24/2012/f6/6cc83e17f759.jpg

Отредактированно HILMI (06.12.2020 19:54:12)

 

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