Thank you very much Fedor!

Interesting this Bulgarian source!
May i know if there are reported interesting or curious losses that may be associated with the Soviet submarine (or else) activity?
For example the mysterious sinking of three sailing ships on 29 May - 2 June 1942 by ShCh-214.


I am also interested in losses in Aegean Sea, because i read of local Greek Partisan naval activities.
You can write me on PM, if you have time to not go off-topic

Кибардин Г.А. написал:

#1318311
Анализ советских и болгарских источников показывает, что это могли быть болгарские суда. Очень многое на это указывает.

Вынужден не согласиться. КТВ морского транспортного пункта в Бургасе свидетельствует, что все перевозки в направлении Босфора осуществлялись на турецких парусниках. Вот хотя бы небольшой пример:

Предполагаю, что у турок эти очень небольшие по размерам суда числятся пропавшими без вести или погибшими от морских причин. У болгар же просто не было судов в эксплуатации на коммуникации с Босфором.

Речь, очевидно, идет о записях за 20 октября 1942 г.
Разовые опечатки такого рода, по моему мнению, не дискредитируют документ в целом. Опечатки встречаются практически в любых документах, особенно советских, но это не повод с ними не считаться. Вот если бы в этом КТВ регулярно отсутствовали записи о реально заходивших в порт судах, тогда другое дело.

Шхуны потопленные ПЛ "Щ-214" контрабандой не занимались. О их гибели знал немецкий военно-морской атташе а Стамбуле. Он их в своём сообщении назвал турецкими, что турецкими источниками не подтверждается.
Уважаемый Мирослав Эдуардович признаёт, что в документах бывают опечатки, но в данном случае он почему-то считает, что опечатка не имела место. Лично я, опираясь на результаты своих многолетних исследований, считаю, что атташе ошибся и эти шхуны были болгарскими.

Теперь о случае с итальянским танкером "Арка" ( 2238 брт ), который в немецких документах по меньшей мере два раза был назван турецким судном. Немцы так внимательно исполняли свои обязанности, что, как говорится, "слона не приметили", что тогда  говорить о точности информации о идентификации  небольших судов.

Остается только привести названия этих трех болгарских шхун. У болгар-то шхун было, думаю, на порядок, а то и на два меньше, чем у турок. Пропажу должны были сразу заметить, тем более трех подряд.
Что же касается наличия флагов и знания языков, то это не удивляет, если речь идет действительно о контрабандистах. Почему утверждается, что потопленные Щ-214 шхуны контрабандой не занимались, мне не понятно.
Что касается "Арка" и КТВ СТС Бургас, то это больше похоже на ошибку машинистки, которая перепечатывала КТВ с рукописной версии - все суда на странице называются турецкими.

Sch-215 fired 10 45-mm shells against F-125 and 75 12,7-mm bullets against Stralsund, L-1357 probably wasn't a target. Her leak (KTB STS Sebastopol) probably caused of grounding off Ak-Mechet 12.1.1943.

Oh yes, but you already explained it.

I was saying that then you should fix the table-list at  #10   removing this entry


Also this one

???    ТН    б/н    3000    +    18.10.1944    71.08,7 с.ш.    27.44,5 в.д.    торп.    В-4

Should be changed in some way?


And I am uncertain about this one:

герм.    лихт.    EL.74    139    = не введен    28.7.1943    р-н Евпатории    45.06,4 с.ш.    33.17 в.д.    мина    Л-4

Because I read also about name being "EL.73" and not "EL.74"
https://www.historisches-marinearchiv.d … value=1567

Laut KTB MLK Konstanza sank EL-73 (sic!) auf einer Mine; EL-74 (das im selben Geleit unterwegs war) sank dagegen am 7.5.44 beim Fliegerangriff in Seva.

Clearly there is some kind of mitaken identity in some source.

Thanks for your past clarification, some time ago i wrote a comment (but later other messages were wrote) about the incident with Soviet submarine S-7 and merchant "Ellen Larsen" on 27 July 1942.
If i understood correctly (from HM https://www.historisches-marinearchiv.d … value=1080)  the ship did not ground and did not received damage at all during the incident. It is correct?
(Sovboat.ru still say about grounding incident).


Also, while your list doesn't cover Winter War, i think as small mention that something can be added for ShCh-311.
During the attack against "Fenris" on 5/Jan/1940, also the Swedish lightship "Sydostbrotten" (525 tons) received very small light damage  ("ankarlanterna" damaged).

Отредактированно lupodimare89 (21.03.2019 14:05:10)

lupodimare89 написал:

#1348336
If i understood correctly (from HM https://www.historisches-marinearchiv.d … value=1080)  the ship did not ground and did not received damage at all during the incident. It is correct?

I have only short German info about the incident and I think this is not enough to delet this claim.

lupodimare89 написал:

#1348353
Apparently, this schooner could be lost in same field responsable for "Walter".

I didn't find this loss in krigsmarine documents, so I can't check this claim.

Кибардин Г.А. написал:

#1348611
"Sydostbrotten",у которого в результате обстрела ПЛ "Щ-311"

Атака 15 ноября 1941г?

I should stress damage to "Sydostbrotten" appears very minor.

I sent a message to the German forum, becauses the case of "Johanna" is potentially interesting.

I didn't find this loss in krigsmarine documents, so I can't check this claim.

I asked about it, in the topic they quoted an author, and even stated the name of ship's captain and owner that was found (Hermann Böschen from Ovelgönne).

Greetings, I had recently time to investigate other checks of interesting or mysterious episodes of Black Sea. Here a couple of assessment/questions over already-known cases. Opinions and evaluations are welcome ^^



1)) Attack of 17 August 1942 done by M-31 apparently at 46 ° 19,9 'N / 30 ° 45,8' E
Romulus observed and reported 1 torpedo miss, and this should close the case because the often mentioned steamer Dürnstein reportedly sunk in Kerch on 20 August.
(Note: wrecksite.ru said "1941", but i am fairly sure is simple a typo mistake).
The loss of the steamer is fully confirmed by German sources? Because on a main ktb i simply found reported on 18 August that there was storm weather and neither of the 2 ships (i think Romulus and Dürnstein) so far reached destination.
More interestingly, again wrecksite.ru in the area off Odessa reported wrecks that could match with Dürnstein being sunk there:
Coordinated reported: 48 ° 18'7 "N 30 ° 46'E  again i think a typo mistake and maybe intended 46 ° 18'7 "N 30 ° 46'E
There is also a description of a diving made in 1970:

In 1970 Nicholas club "Sadko" together with the Hydrographic Service of the Black Sea Fleet in the region surveyed last coordinates a small wheel lift. Here is their description. The depth of 23 meters. Although hydrographers said that buoy dropped in the region of 20 meters from the goal, it appeared that the cargo buoy is about three feet from the side. We started to look around. It turned out - the old lift, most of the deck accumulated in the soil. At the stern the rudder still visible. Above deck, located across the three towing arc. For the third arc - the remains of the superstructure. On the superstructure there are two twin helm, overgrown with small mussels. In 1-1.5 meters from the steering wheels - the remains of steamship pipe. The end of the tube rose by about 6 meters above the ground.
And provides descriptions of Odessa divers dive to the object recently. "Severely damaged the ship about 50 m long. Fore and aft preserved well. The nose under the forecastle, there is something like Kubrick, you can swim in. Preserved admiralty anchor. The middle part left in the ground, the board fell on the parties. The aft remained small the steering wheel is made of black metal. (Located right on the deck). In the middle part found many boards might deck, either. The load is difficult to determine, but it was something like a bag, a black mass, like rotten forage. Was found and raised a large piece of charcoal irregularly shaped, slightly larger than a soccer ball. For stern rudder seen, very much. In the absence of any signs of machines and add-ons
We identified the vessel as the barges may wartime or
previously

Then provide extra details:
The depth of 28 meters. Rise above the ground 3 meters.
Coordinates 46 ° 19 'N 30 ° 53' E
These last coordinates are different from the first ones of the reported wreck:
Between attack reported coordinates and first alleged wreck there are 2 nautical miles. Between attack coordinates and second alleged wreck there are almost 6 nautical miles.
Identity of these wrecks has been already assessed? What are exactly the descriptions of loss of Dürnstein?
In theory, if she was declared as missing due storm off Odessa (and not Kerch as reported), it could still be a victim of M-31 with Romulus observing 1 torpedo and then missing contact or not observing the sinking of Dürnstein because weather conditions.


2)) Loss of German merchant "Charlotte" (1591 GRT) currently removed as possible loss caused by L-6 mines because sunk more north to her position.
On the old site (I think still down?) Wrecksite.ru there was an interesting different assessment for potential location of wrecks, in particular:
a) the commonly reported sinking place should be  44°53'60.00"N   33°28'0.00"E  that's more or less 4 nautical miles from L-6 field (per-se it's not a very excessive distance)
b)) the site actually reported two potential wrecks at these coordinates:
44°48'20.22"N     33°29'31.68"E
and   44°47'34.74"N   33°29'13.74"E
Both of the are located SOUTH of L-6 distance at the relatiely small distance of 1.5 and 2.5 nautical miles.
These info are already known and assessed?

Greetings again, none of the wreck was identified as certain so it could totally be something else.
However the dived location Dürnstein it's the very same one you found, so we can assume that's the wreck. Year of loss (1944) obviously deny every other theory, i should say the site made some kind of confusion about this (mentioning 1941?!) while sub. attack was 1942.

With "Charlotte" again it was just mentioned as possibility (no real diving attempted i think?) but in any case 44.54,5 N/32.38 E  is very distant from the wrecks spotted and L-6 fields. So that's another close case.



Thanks for clarifying both!

lupodimare89 написал:

#1357563
So the actual name is translated "Tina V." (or "Tyna V." ?) and not "Tyra"-"V" (as Roman number "5")?

Yes

lupodimare89 написал:

#1357563
DEFE 3/614 pagg932
On 19 Aug. 1943 it say  "Tug “Swoyswome” damage to rudder probably after ramming submarine"
Incident already known/assessed?

A false contact - no one soviet sub on position east to Sebastopol on that day.

lupodimare89 написал:

#1357563
There is no likely Soviet submarine attack that can be related to this German claim to my knowledge so it was likely a false observation.

Yes