I guess the list of submarines from navypedia http://www.navypedia.org/ships/germany/ger_ss_viic.htm
Or uboat.net (or other sites), rely on sources that doesn't put doubts on the usual fate credited to subs entered in service in 44/45.

Regarding list of subs, I thought that at least the submarines that were recovered intact by the Allied and then scuttled, were put in a sufficiently clear
the list. It should not to be too doubtful, if both American and British Navy made some kind of lists of them (i think).


If i've some time I could try to make a full checking (thanks navypedia) of all the submarines of the VIIC class.
The list is huge, but if we remove 1) all the losses on the other fronts, and 2) all the submarines listed as captured and scuttled after the war, maybe such list could be considerably reduced.

I am wondering if for such work I should include the  VIIC/41 too.
I know there were little differences, but the divers seems to have identified the wreck as a previous VIIC

Hello again! As I planned, I've started making some works to check especially other minefields (and potential targets) location (thanks google earth).
(and I admit to have had some fun with it, it's an hobby for me, after all ^^)

I started focusing on the fields and potential targets reguarding  submarine L-3, and here some doubts-uncertain things to me.

Previously I was going to ask you details about why you've inserted the "Franz Bohmke" (25 August 1942), but now i've seen that the location was actually pretty much far from the L-3 fields   (24- 25 Km) so I guess other mines (RAF-laid?) are much more likely.

I've equally seen how some old claims of 1945 are all due british or soviet air-dropped mines.


However there is still some interest for ships sunk on 1943:
On the other question&answers you replied me about the loss of "Grundsee" and "Tristan": both you assessed as uncertain events. Ships were lost on voyage, and they could have struck one of the old L-3 mines at Klaipeda (I had personally found a reference on KTB with Germans discovering one of such mines only later), but also could have been sunk by storm and nothing can be added until wrecks are identified.

(obviously such possibilities can't be added to your list, but I've mentioned as possibilities in the italian site I write into).


However  historisches-marinearchiv.de  mentioned also the possibility that merchant "Marie Ferdinand" that stranded after having struck L-3 mines  on 10 January 1943  and then was wrecked by storm 4 days later.

How do you regard this possibility (if there is an actual option, or it's a clear no)  ? It was reported storm also for 10 January?   
I've found that this field (only 3 mines laid on 13 November 1942) were laid at 56.44n 20.47e
The location doesn't seems too far.




However it seems a bit more promising the activity of 1941.
I've checked the data of the old claim about "Cisil", and I've no idea how it could have been claimed before: after all she was sunk in Kolberg and no mine of L-3 was laid there.



The mines of Klaipeda on June 1941 are however more promising!
I see that none of the old claims "Kaja","Henny", "Uno", "Egeran"

According historisches-marinearchiv.de  the location of the mines are: 
55.45,8n - 21.00,3e / 55.43,9n - 20.59,2e / 55.42,2n -21.01,0e. - Erfolge am 1.10., 19.11., 22.11., 26.11.41

Also the site provide the location of sinking for Kaja: 55.41,8n 21.03,1e    and Henny:  55.43n 21.02e

In the end the site assess the loss of "Kaja" as confirmed to L-3, while the other three are left uncertain.

Checking on google earth, I actually think that it is "Henny" to be closer to the field, rather than "Kaja".



What is your assessment about these sinking? (obviously only in matters of probabilities/possibilities).

It is worth to be said that site give clearly wrong data of coordinates for "Kaja"., however it gives 55.43n 21.03e  as coordinates for "Egeran", that it is just slightly at western location compared to the ones of "Henny".
http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/mi … perren.htm

Thank you very much for the clarifications for the 1941 events   ! (i've updated the italian forum, with your name further mentioned).


Some last questions to finish covering about L-3:

I heared about mine damages of "Marie Ferdinand" for the first time.

It seems just  a guessing/hypotesis without much other details:
http://www.historisches-marinearchiv.de … value=1190
http://www.historisches-marinearchiv.de … value=1184


But apart that, a pair more of clarification, if I can ask:
Regarding "Franz Bohmke", I believe it incorrect due the coordinates of sinking, however here it's wrote that ship was lifted and recovered.
http://www.historisches-marinearchiv.de … value=1116
You've not listed her because of the coordinates or because it was fully recovered?


A possible typo mistake i've found its'
" Hindenburg"  (7888 GRT)
I see usually other online sources say 7880, what's correct?


A final one I think it's reguarding mines from 1945: while for M-3138, Jersback and Pollux, reasons seems all be aerial-dropped mines, i've however found about


Also I've found about   patrol ship "Vs-112" sunk on 10 April 1945, possibly from mines laid on 23 March.
Do you consider on this one some confirmed denial, or it's a possible one with lack of data?

Botik Petra Velikogo написал:

#954087
7880 GRT in Dinklage's handbook.

Lloyd Register agree with 7880.

Hello again, after some time (study + new pc).

I would have liked to define better the situation for L-21

After some research , there are only few things that remain partially unexplained.


The possible sinking of "Eberhard" (749 GRT), on 22 December 1944, on the mines laid on November.
If I recall it correctly, the main issue with this sinking it's that almost a month has passed and if I am right (by that time), the field should have already been swept  by Germans.


The damaging on destroyer Z-43, occurred on 10 April 1944: once again, almost an entire month has passed. Plus I've not clearly understood if it's known or no the exact point where the destroyer was hit by mine. I think to remember that has been said (maybe in the Q&A topic) that no clear known location is reported.  (Uboat.net gives the following coordinates: 54°36'N, 18°52'E. )

The torpedo attack occurred on 24 March 1945.
While the supposed identity of the victim as the tug Erni is proved false, reading the brief description of the attack on town.ural.ru  seems to indicate that a target was observed as hit. I am aware that such witness of target assumed hit sometimes it's exagerrated, but what happened on this case? it is possible that was hit some kind of minor target (fishing trawler?) or that it was a false result?

Hello again! (and thanks for the previous replies).

I've started re-working on all the pages for the italian site (all data got lost), and this give the opportunity to check better all the cases one by one.


The last one I was working yesterday reguards  submarine  A-5   in Black Sea.
Today we know about the failures of the attacks on 12/13 May 1944, however I wanted to focus a bit more on the attack on 11 May 1944.

Tsushima.net speak about up two possibilities of successful result: damaging of MFP F-568 (later sunk in air raid), or sinking of MFP F-581 (with reported unclear ultimate fate).

Curiously HM give a controversy data regarding F-568
http://www.historisches-marinearchiv.de … _value=628
Claiming both that was damaged by ShCh-201 (on 12/may) or that was missed.
Checking the whole page of the attacks done, I fid it a bit complicated http://historisches-marinearchiv.de/pro … var2=wert2

What is your opinion of the fate of F-568 and the possibility it was damaged by torpedo? (by ShCh-201 or A-4, or in general if A-4 attack has some potential real target that was hit).


Checking back on axishistory.com, Igor had found

She was hit & damaged by bomb.

So I guess possibly the two events (damage by bomb, torpedo attack) were merged in one?


Instead, regarding F-581, reading here..
http://www.historisches-marinearchiv.de … _value=660
It appears that even the fate it is not clear, on 31 May 1944 it was assigned to a group, thus I don't think it could have been a victim of the attack.

Thanks again for having replied me in the main Question&Answers page! ^^

If you don't mind I would have exposed you a pair of cases for another submarine:   L-5 in Black Sea.


I think we nothing else to consider about possibilities of successes with mines from 1941 (L-5 is sometimes credited as possible cause for a number of ships sunk by mines of L-4 or soviet warships).
However there are two cases for 1942 that seems a bit more open.


1) On 17 February 1943 the MFP F-473 is often reported as having possibly hit a mine from the submarine. She was badly damaged, not sunk, and later further damaged by aircraft and Germans did not recovered her.

Town.ural.ru and  deepstorm.ru speak about the first one. The only data I found for F-473 was that was hit close Chersonese cape.
Deepstorm.ru speak about the two possible fields of 6 August (44°27,Г с.ш./33°25,5' в.д. и 44°27,3' с.ш./33°24,6' в.д. ) and 12 August (44°25,6' с.ш./33°22,5' в.д. и 44°25,2' с.ш./33°29,9' в.д.)
Both fields were laid at 2.4metres from the bottom.

Location for F-473 seems good. And on axishistory forum, igor told me you called related this event as possible.
May I know a more detailed assessment? Do you think it's a possibility (still not confirmed) or a very improbable one?
I guess the main issue it's the time, that months has  passed  from the creation of the field.


Checking on the english translated KTB of Black Sea, little can be added. It say only that:

Ferry barge F 473, proceeding from Sevastopol to Yalta, struck a drifting mine west of Cape Chersones. The commander and 11 men were lost. She was towed to Sevastopol by F 474.

2) Also MFP F-138 is reported to have possibly being hit by one of L-5's mines. It is reported as possibility only by town.ural.ru

However, according German data from HM

- 04.10.1942 13.00 Uhr F 138 auf Marsch von Kertsch nach Varna vor Ak-Burnu im ausgebojten Weg, mit Lotsengeleit auf Mine gelaufen. Mit schweren Beschädigungen eingeschleppt. 2 Verwundete.[5]
- 04./05.10.1942 vor Sewastopol durch Minentreffer schwer beschädigt, nach Sewastopol eingeschleppt, als irreparabel befunden.[1]
- 05.10.1942 Meldung Gruppe Süd: F 138 auf eigene Mine in Pawlowski-Sperrlücke gelaufen, eingeschleppt, 2 Verwundete. Schäden erheblicher als gedacht, Reparatur unmöglich.[4]
- 05.10.1942 Der am 04.10. auf Mine gelaufene F 138 ist während der Nacht vollgelaufen und liegt auf Grund am Kai. Teile können ausgebaut werden. Werftsachverständiger gibt Boot auf. Das Boot ist Vorkante U-Raum durchgebrochen und in allen Teilen leck. Maschine steht unter Wasser.[5]
- 08.10.1942 F 138 nach Prüfung durch OWST reparaturunwürdig. Teile werden ausgebaut und verwendet.[5]

It is mentioned as option the loss on own German mines.

Hello again and thanks for your reply!

Here another case (not particularly secret however).
I wanted to understand better the status of the ShCh-303 attack on night of 8/9 March 1945 (right after midnight).
The attack should have occurred close Libau and there is a bit of  confusion on the multiple sources about the often-described target (merchant "Borbeck").
For what I understood, the merchant sunk close Hela around 11 March due air attack.
Why ShCh-303 was connected to the attack? Where the ship was located on 8/9 March? (I guess that reporting ShCh-303 at Hela on 11 March was wrong, but maybe the ship was damaged at Libau and then sunk at Hela?)

What's your opionion about this case?

Hello again, I know there is already my other reply in the main Q&A, so no rush to give a reply.
While moving on the works for the submarine pages in the italian forum, i've stumbled upon one case that could need some clarification.

On ShCh-201, in Black Sea, all the career seems clear (including the failures in the last attack of 1944).
Except the very last attack during the evening of 12 May 1944.

Both deepstorm.ru and town.ural.ru report as a possibility that she damaged the MFP F-568.
Checking the story of this unit, there is little revelations.
http://www.historisches-marinearchiv.de … _value=628
reporting both options (either damaged or missed).

What do you think it happened? It is a close case or a confused one?

Thanks for the previous reply, and while i've still left open my question for the general Q&A topic, here another one for subs.

For the ShCh-307 attacks in late 1944/1945 (I know it's an hard subject due less documents, if I am right)

1) I've read a possibility for the loss (related to attacks in early November 1944)  of merchant "Skrunda" (2141 GRT), actually reported as a soviet vessel lost in 1941 evacuating Tallinn, but with rumor of Germans raising her.  If I'm right it should be a bit of a legend, and I think to trust the explain historisches-marinearchiv.de, simply mentioning an attack against group of minesweepers (in particular against M-328).

2) The first attack of 9 January 1945, despite old claims on merchant "Marie Ferdinand" (1757 GRT), it's positive to describe it instead as the failed attack against patrol ship V-317.


3) The very last attack it's the one that seems more mysterious: the one occurred on 16 January 1945.
Town.ural.ru give multiple options: first of all the often-reported "Henrietta Schulze (1923 GRT)" that however should have grounded by storm the next day and then shelled by artillery at Memel.
As second option was said "Steinburg" (1319 GRT), reported however as sunk by mines close Libau on the next day.

Currently Town.ural.ru report it as a question-mark option: the location of the attack (56.19n 20.23e) it's close to Libau.
It is possible that ShCh-307 indeed damaged the "Steinburg" that was later sunk on mines the next day? Also who could have laid such mines?




Once again thanks for your answers and take your time to reply

Отредактированно lupodimare89 (27.11.2015 12:06:24)

Thank you as ever for your replies!!

I know we have already talked about it on the other topic, but it could be worth to report the results here because this is the topic for the submarine.

In view of that mention I've linked you of survival of mine/s of the field from L-3 (sorry my mistake there, the field should be of 5 November 1942)
http://i.imgur.com/2Sfo3wJ.png

How do you regard now the possibilities for the sinking of "Tristan" and  "Grundsee" and especially "Dirschau" ?

I think that for "Tristan" and "Grundsee" the option of loss by storm it's the main one, however there could be more chances for "Dirschau" ?
In particular we know that:
1) loss was closer by date of the laying of the mines
2) escape boats found closer Libau (rather than Danzig bay, possibily ruling out the option she was lost at the beginning of the voyage).

Thank you, for your reply, even if it generate some further questions...

For example... in the end it seems to me that you assign the sinking of "Edith Bosselman" on the old field of 27-6-1941 and NOT the field of 5-11-1942 ?


What happened to that field? It's known to have been identified and swept?


Regardless the unclear fate of "Tristan" and  "Grundsee"; I was however focusing a bit more on the "Dirschau".

Because after all "Dirschau" was sunk few days BEFORE  the  "Edith Bosselman"   (5-12-42 vs  9-12-42).
Sadly we don't know the exact sinking location of "Dirschau", but the indication of escape boats found on the coast could point she was lost around the same area south of Libau; maybe by a mine originated by the same field that sunk "Edith Bosselman".

Weighting all the data, the only key difference was that "Dirschau" should be lost in unknown location, but... probably on that area, due remains found.


Of course this can't be verified for sure (not knowing exact point of sinking), but could be worth to be mentioned as a possibility (maybe not your list still....)

Happy to have helped!
For me it's just an hobby, but some times it's rewarding to find new details or clues that help to revise events and victories/losses...

I've also edited the page I keep in the italian forum (most text it's translated from town.ural.ru with direct link as reference), with proper credits to you.
http://www.xmasgrupsom.com/public/Forum … p;p=44#p44
I've also mentioned in the text about the cases of "Tristan" and  "Grundsee" as something of unexplained due not discovery of wrecks/sinking location and possibility of storm.



I think this addition is particularly interesting because now the L-3 surpass both L-4 and L-21 in cumulative tally of victories (sunk + damaged): they were all at  9 , but now L-3 reached 10, surpassing the other two submarines.