Боюсь Вас разочаровать, но ни на один из этих вопросов я ответить не могу. Может, позже что-то станет известно.

Greetings! I was going to reply back on the other forum thread, then i remembered there is this personal one for you ^^
If you have other knowledge over the Azov Sea operations, I would really like to know more details about a number of clashes and direct combat operations. So far i found plenty of interesting potential ones.

Concerning the 1 May 1943 fight it's somewhat frustrating honestly. I believed that mention of direct POWs from the alleged grounded boat was a direct sign of realistic incident. Yet knowing that there were no prisoners at all jeopardize the whole thing (and other potential incidents too).



The other one i wrote there but you've not commented is the other interesting clash occurred on 30 August 1943 at Taganrog.

Попытки врага атаковать отходящие суда с воздуха были отбиты, в воздушных боях и зенитным огнём сбито 3 немецких самолёта. Также имел место ещё один морской бой: один из бронекатеров прикрытия десанта обнаружил и перехватил немецкий сторожевой катер, пытавшийся атаковать корабли высадки. В завязавшемся морском бою немецкий катер получил тяжелые повреждения и спустил флаг, экипаж (10 человек) сдался в плен. При буксировке захваченный катер из-за полученных повреждений затонул.   
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После этого десант на катерах возвратился в Ейск. Наши потери - 1 человек убит и 10 ранены. БКА-111 взял в плен 1 ска противника с экипажем, но из-за невозможности буксировки катер был затоплен. В бою 4 бка с 4 кл и 3 катерами неприятеля с баржами повреждены 1 катер и 1 баржа врага.

Again there are apparently strong reasons to believe the episode is real:
1) Target was apparently a not-Kriegsmarine craft and some kind of evacuation boat from the harbor so it's not impossible that the Navy was unaware of her loss.
2) Incidents described quite in details, including the attempt to tow the boat, make the combat more solid than claiming a blurred-target at the horizoon as sunk
3) Presence of prisoners, including a specific number (10) should again be a relative strong point of evidence.
What is your opinion/assessment?


I have gathered other episodes and incidents, however another that is 100% confirmed in my opinion it's this one:
On 18 August 1943,
As aftermath of the battle that caused the loss of two BKA (Against German MAL).
Two (unknown to me) TKA went in search for the missing boats, encountered two fishing boats and captured them allegedly with 10 POWs.
The episode is fully confirmed by Germans: Ultra file "DEFE 3/614" (pagg750) directly mentioned:

“At 1000” “2 enemy boats carried off 2 fishing boats after capturing the crew(s), 6 men”

Later fixed at "2 M.T.B."
I am interested in knowing the exact number of prisoners and identity (Ukrainians? German guards?), details of the captured boats (hull numbers? extimate in size?) and their exact fate (if towed to base, or scuttled).
And first of all knowing the identity of the TKA involved in seizure.

Thank you for these informations! Very pleased to answers finally (but understandble it's not a much widespread subject).

All these cases are not naval combats of course

Oh yes i know, but i am interested in general on all this kind of surface "contacts", including seizure or scuttling of very small boats of this nature (not necessarily with gunfire action involved).

AKA-116 and AKA-126 in search of witnesses of destroying of 2 BKA had founded several fishing boats, and had taken from two of them 10 persons (local population). According to Germans, 6 registered fishermen were lost. So 4 more were unregistered.

Fate of these boats is known to you? I have not found further German mentions of them, it is possible they were left floating to sink?


It is great to finally get a full view of the episode of 30/Aug/43
This should be the motorboat becoming KATSh-193

The victory of BKA 111 so far should be the most neat of such kind of incident involving a Soviet BKA in the whole Azov Sea and Black Sea btw (enemy naval target lost as consequence of direct action, excluding indirect minelaying operations).


I have started to write-down potential similar incidents in Azov Sea spanning from 1941 to 1943 and I could show you bit by bit.
Also don't rush on replies! Take all your time for it.

Greetings again!
I am slowly reading more of the Defe files, keeping an eye open for other similar episodes, and there are a couple of reports here:

On 1 October 1943,   DEFE 691/5 pagg624 it say that
"All vessels have come except WM-2206, WM-2209 and 3 fishing smacks.
Leaving Genichesk (Azov) to Kerch"

The following day it say
"WM-2209 and WM-2816" (with second unit letter's "2" corrected by pen) and 8 fishing smacks did not arrive in Kerch.
((I think there is possibly some mistake in identification of second unit))


Thes reports COULD match with this Soviet claim i found:

В ночь на 27 сентября они ворвались в Темрюк. Остатки противника отходили к Керченскому проливу, надеясь на переправу через него в Крым, но их попытки были пресечены флотилией.

But it is very vague: there is some more specific/known claims of the Azov Flotilla about intercepting and sinking/seizing small boats in the timespan between 27 September-1 October that could match these missing boats? Do you have more details also on the German side?



Thanks again and no rush for replying

Thank you, and yes i know the distance just it was something described more or less in the same timeframe (so maybe also Soviet boats made similar attempts in the lower Azov Sea more close Kerch, but you found nothing so case close: maybe the boats were lost by weather or just in lage delay).

To get back at Taganrog operations on 30/August, I found two different brief accounts of the actual Soviet occupation of the harbor with potential intact crafts sezied:

A few hours after returning to Yeisk, the same landing force was again landed in Taganrog, where, by the end of the day, the troops of the 44th army had entered. The enemy had already left the city by that time, so the landing force did not lead, taking the port and the ships in it (10 seiners, 2 boats, 2 barges) and 3 warehouses in the port.

But also:

Только в боях за Таганрог моряки уничтожили 3 десантные баржи, сторожевой катер, пароход, буксир, 3 танка, более 200 автомашин, захватили сторожевой катер, 2 тральщика, 54 самоходных сейнера

This second account has more inflated numbers, claiming none less than 6 different targets sunk: possibly one was the motorboat interepted by BK-111, what else could be the other claims? (if real).
Concerning the captures: maybe the two "minesweepers" were actually the motorboat that later become KATSh-193.
The other one could be this:

25. КАТЩ-190 (до 2.10.1943 г. "Таганрог", с 21.06.1944 г. "КТ-825")
Бывший германский сейнер, ТТЭ не установлены. Захвачен 30.08.1943 г., переоборудован в катер-тральщик и 2.10.1943 г. включен в состав Азовской флотилии ЧФ. Участвовал в Керченско-Эльтигенской 31.10 - 11.12.1943 г. десантной операции. 6.01.1944 г. исключен из списков ВМФ, но 21.06.1944 г. после капитального ремонта вновь включен в состав ЧФ.

What do you think it's the real amount/identity of boats/crafts seized in harbor by Soviet boats? So far, i think the number could be 1 motorboat (later become КАТЩ-190), 2 barges and 10 seiners if the first account is more realistic.
Also what it was the identity of the Group of BKA/КАТЩ etc. involved in the operation?


Again, thanks for your replies and no rush ^^

Ah ok, thanks for clarifying. Indeed what i gathered was honestly a bit confusing, and it was not clear if army or flotilla captured the harbor first.

Something similar could be said for the following Mariupol operation on 10 September:
I found a description of Soviet boats engaging and sinking a MFP, that's obviously false (apart possible report of prisoners? if there was something on this regard maybe it was simply a barge). If i am correct the harbor was later seized by the disenbarked troops, but with no gunboats directly entering/capturing the harbor, there should be no case of direct boat-to-boat seizure/capture. You have knowledge of some?


Concerning Temryuk (27 September) I had only that very vague line i quoted above:

В ночь на 27 сентября они ворвались в Темрюк. Остатки противника отходили к Керченскому проливу, надеясь на переправу через него в Крым, но их попытки были пресечены флотилией.

But you already say there is no strong report of some targets directly seized concerning this operation. Maybe something immediately before or after?


Finally, concerning the last main German base, Genichesk, in German KTB and Ultra i only found accounts of the scuttling operations at 30 October and evacuation with no report of missing boats or potential losses. There is something on this regard on Soviet claims with some strong proof? (full seizures, prisoners etc.)



Thanks again for all your replies and effort ^^
Take all the time you need.
(PS: Azov Sea doesn't seems to be an high interest of authors, compared to Kerch-Fedosya and open Black Sea operations. I could propose similar questions also for the operations in late 1941 and 1942, even if i have yet to finish research myself the Ultra files of the period. Quite long work because they are merged with other war zones)).

Thank you again for your latest reply!
While i would have other questions for Azov Sea, especially for the previous years 1941 and 1942, i would wait a bit because i am making some checks myself on the Ultra.

Meanwhile (still connected to lake-inner seas warfare), i found on russian site, this very brief mention of an incident of seizure in Ladoga Lake.

2 сентября 1941 года

В районе о. Валаам наш ска МО захватил катер противника.

On axishistoryforum i asked Finnish users if there was some trace of information and they found none so far.
My guessing it's if the incident was real, MO seized some kind of local civilian small cutter.

There is some extra data on Soviet side that could strenght this claim? (identification hull number, existance-number of prisoners).
Also it is known the identity of Soviet boats involved?

I didn't dig up Ladoga 1941-44 in depth but most probably it was a boat abandoned in Aug.1941. Anyway nothing interesting for the naval history.

Oh ok, a pity. Just to clarify, I am exactly interested this kinds of incidents (everything floating bigger than a nameless rowboat or a raft let's say), especially if they later come to some use in Soviet service (like two abandoned Finnish boats seized during winter war on 30/Nov/39, in the north) or with presence of prisoners (still in Ladoga, a seizure achieved by MO boats on 25/Aug/42 with 2 prisoners).
I think that's far more interesting than pages and pages of debate on stuff like "K-21 vs Tirpitz" for the simple fact of being real than a failure.


I will make some extra questions about Azov Sea once i finish check some of the Ultra for 1943 in that area. Hopefully before i depart for holidays


Thanks again for your work and replies! ^^

Доброе утро ! Встречались Вам предложение в годы Великой Отечественной Войны установить на бронекатерах вместо танковых башен 85 мм зенитных пушек,37 мм автоматов на Г-5 вместо торпед и на МО-4?

А. Кузнецов написал:

#1381345
На МО-4 70-К в принципе можно было установить, наверное, но я не встречал. Нужно учитывать, что 70-К весила в разы больше, чем 45-мм 21-К.

Существует такое фото. Кто это, выяснить не удалось.

vas63 написал:

#1381363
Существует такое фото. Кто это, выяснить не удалось.

Катер МО-108 в 43 году после ремонта была установлена 37 мм орудие

А. Кузнецов написал:

#1381371
А отзывы об эксплуатации катера после этого известны?

Попалась информация по расходу боезапаса (Демонстрационный десант на Соммерс 43 год)