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#1 03.05.2012 20:35:08

arrow1
Гость




Фисанович Израиль Ильич

Я использую переводчика, и я надеюсь мой русский язык
язык будет underestandable.

Я ищу больше информации относительно судьбы
Фисанович Израиль Ильич командующий
советская субмарина, отсутствующая на Северном
Полушарие и предполагаемый как нападается
Британский Морской анти-подводный самолет. Однако
из различных книг на английском языке ясно заявлен
та его субмарина, погруженная из-за причин нет
связанный с британским Флотом.

Дополнительно я хочу спросить если советский Флот
названный в честь Второй Мировой Войны любая его субмарина
после его названия{имени}

Спасибо

Алекс К

#2 03.05.2012 20:40:33

Prinz Eugen
Рядовой запаса
KMS Schwere Kreuzer Prinz Eugen
Сообщений: 23774




Re: Фисанович Израиль Ильич

2 arrow1
Maybe you prefer to write in English?


...it is inadvisable to drive men beyond a certain point...
ABC, may 1941
...неразумно злоупотреблять долготерпением людей...
Эндрю Браун Каннингэм, май 1941

#3 03.05.2012 21:35:59

Doctor Haider
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Re: Фисанович Израиль Ильич

Hi!

I've found some information about I.I. Fisanovich.

He was a captain of M-172 from 22 July 1941 per 10 July 1943
Also.
The captain of former British submarine Sunfish, V-1 in Soviet Navy from 30.05(19.04?).1944 per 07.1944. The sub was destroyed after 25 July 1944 while enroute from Lerwick to Polarny. Possibly destroyed by the British patrol plane B-24 Liberator from the 86 squadron of Coastal command (the crew of the plane reported that a submarine was sink in the corridor reserved for V-1, the submarine doesn't answer to the calling signal and started to dive instead). The coordinates reported by the plane: 64° 34′ 0″ N, 1° 16′ 0″ E

Known decorations:
Hero of Soviet Union Star
Order of Lenin
Order of Red Banner (twice)
Order of Ushakov
Order of the Patriotic War
USA Navy Cross

The Russian and Soviet subs were very rarely named after persons. There weren't any sub named after Fisanovich after the WW2

Also look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Fisanovich

Отредактированно Doctor Haider (03.05.2012 21:47:57)

#4 03.05.2012 21:47:47

arrow1
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Re: Фисанович Израиль Ильич

Hello

Thank you to you both, I was aware about the details
you have mentioned.

My question remains. Was his sub mistakenly sunken by depth
charges of a RN Anti Sub Aircraft on the Northern hemisphere
as the old Soviet sources citing ?

Fact is that RN didn't confirm that neither they had any
anti sub aircraft throughing torpedos or depth charges
on that day. Additionally the weather restricted aircraft
operations on that perimeter.

Did Soviet Navy attempt to recover the sub or make
an intensive search for it ?

Best Regards
Alex K

#5 03.05.2012 21:51:33

Doctor Haider
Гость




Re: Фисанович Израиль Ильич

arrow1 написал:

Оригинальное сообщение #523415
Fact is that RN didn't confirm that neither they had any
anti sub aircraft throughing torpedos or depth charges
on that day. Additionally the weather restricted aircraft
operations on that perimeter.

Interesting. We may try to investigate where the information about British plane was taken.


Господа, у кого-нибудь есть данные откуда в советских источниках появмлась столь подробная информация о потоплении В-1 британским самолетом к северу от Шетландских острвов.

Коллега arrow1 утверждает, что в британских источниках данных об этом нет и вообще погода в этом районе была нелетная.

#6 03.05.2012 21:56:34

Doctor Haider
Гость




Re: Фисанович Израиль Ильич

arrow1 написал:

Оригинальное сообщение #523415
Did Soviet Navy attempt to recover the sub or make
an intensive search for it ?

No.

#7 03.05.2012 22:04:44

arrow1
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Re: Фисанович Израиль Ильич

The information is from two books I have
on Royal Navy Arm Fleet in WWII. They
mentioned the Soviet claim that a RN
has thrown depth charges into the
questioned area, though the discard any
involvement and they add that the weather
on that was fully IMC ( instrument meto
condition ) which required long target
tracking in instrument flying conditions.

The Brits related the incident to a Soviet
error during diving manuevers or during
battle station drills.

The captain of that sub was an outstanding
commander who could have met any US
German and British sub commanders
standards...is doubtful that he would have
let his sub being attacked and sunken due
friendly fire. 

By the way the Submarine was equipped
with IFF decoders and is doubtful that RN
aircraft didn't have such receivers on
board neither that RN Admirality didnt
inform the RN Arm Air Fleet regarding the
route of Fisanovitchs sub !

Отредактированно arrow1 (03.05.2012 22:09:51)

#8 03.05.2012 22:11:39

Doctor Haider
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Re: Фисанович Израиль Ильич

Hmm. Don't forget that the captain and his crew took the submarine of unknown type from foreign navy with a design that was different from any Soviet sub. The probability of fatal errors increases in such conditions even for an experienced skipper and a crew.

#9 03.05.2012 22:16:42

arrow1
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Re: Фисанович Израиль Ильич

Yes I fully agree but not Fisanovitch, he was one of the most skilled Soviet Navy
submariners , additionally the sub was equipped with IFF transmitters of the
same type RN Air Fleet aircrafts were equipped with , therefore I suggets
for anyone to research the subject , who knows maybe the Soviet Navy of our
days would  decide to search for this sub at his last coordinates.

#10 03.05.2012 22:19:15

Botik Petra Velikogo
Адмиралъ
admiral
anna3 stas3b
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Re: Фисанович Израиль Ильич

Sometimes I got this info here:
http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/44-07.htm

"26.7.– 4.8.1944
Sowjetunion / Nordmeer 
Überführung von 4 U-Booten, die der Sowjet-Nordflotte als Ersatz für ihren Anteil an ital. Kriegsbeute von der Royal Navy überlassen wurden, von Dundee nach Murmansk. Leitung Kpt. 1.Rg. Tripolski. Das zuerst auslaufende V-1 (ex Sunfish) (Kpt. 2.Rg. Fisanovich) wird am 27.7. irrtümlich durch Liberator ‚V’ der RAF-Sq. 86 versenkt, da es 60 sm abseits der festgelegten Marschroute läuft; die folgenden V-2 (ex Unbroken, Kdt. erkrankt, ersatzweise Kpt. Tripolski), V-4 (ex Ursula, Kpt. 3.Rg. Iosseliani) und V-3 (ex Unison, Kpt. 3.Rg. Kabo) treffen zwischen dem 2. und 4.8. ein".

I think Dr. Rohwer got this from the British, not from the soviet sources.


"Вранье и ложь в пропаганде, агитации и печати дискредитируют партийно-политическую работу, флотскую печать и наносят исключительный вред делу большевистского воспитания масс".

Из директивы заместителя Наркома ВМФ СССР и Начальника Главного политического управления ВМФ армейского комиссара 2 ранга И.В. Рогова.

#11 03.05.2012 22:19:43

Doctor Haider
Гость




Re: Фисанович Израиль Ильич

arrow1 написал:

Оригинальное сообщение #523431
By the way the Submarine was equipped
with IFF decoders and is doubtful that RN
aircraft didn't have such receivers on
board neither that RN Admirality didnt
inform the RN Arm Air Fleet regarding the
route of Fisanovitchs sub !

All these measures should be undertaken. But the human error, lack of communications between the allies could hamper these intentions.
Also correct me if I'm mistaken but did the Coastal Command belong to the Royal Navy?

Also there is very high probability that the Soviet crew wasn't provided with the IFF codes and/or wasn't properly instructed how to use the IFF. Because the soviet subs of that time weren't normally equipped by IFF there wasn't the habit and experience in using it.

#12 03.05.2012 22:29:34

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Re: Фисанович Израиль Ильич

My intuition is telling me that the Brits didn't sink the sub
and yes the reports produced by the Stalinst Navy of WWII
citing the Royal Naval Arm Air Fleet as the one who sunken
the sub.

I serious reasons to believe that the Brits didn't
sink the sub. Also since the sub left UK and since
Fisanovitch had previous training with RN I doubt
that such silly error has taken place

#13 03.05.2012 22:34:19

arrow1
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Re: Фисанович Израиль Ильич

Miroslaw

Like always your info is very essential, therefore
if you could post Fisanovitch route which may be
available on your book, I would double check the
routes of the RN Maritime Anti Sub B-24's on that
day

Thanks
Alex K

PS : The 86te Staffel der Royal Navy wurde an der o.E
        Tag ,Wetter bedingt verhindert in diese Zone zu
         fliegen und ferner es ergibt sich seltene Fehler beim
        versenkung des U-Bootes.  Wer ist Dr.Rowher ?

Отредактированно arrow1 (03.05.2012 22:40:57)

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