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#76 21.02.2022 16:35:04

Rutowsky
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Re: Османский флот в 1770 г.

https://disk.yandex.com.tr/i/pL_7YKA2QBV3Ew

Ali Rıza İşipek & Oğuz Aydemir - 1770 Çeşme Deniz Savaşı 1768-1774 Osmanlı Rus Savaşları, Denizler Kitabevi, İstanbul 2006.


Пусть наступают! Пусть где угодно наступают, хоть во всем свете, но здесь они будут стоять. Будут! Пока мы стоим — здесь они будут стоять!..
А вот чего стало действительно многовато на Цусиме, так это откровенной вкусовщины, двойных стандартов, навязывания личных взглядов, и главное, все под благородным трепом о поиске "истины"...

#77 19.03.2022 15:05:01

HILMI
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Re: Османский флот в 1770 г.

Rutowsky написал:

#1532376
https://disk.yandex.com.tr/i/pL_7YKA2QBV3Ew

Ali Rıza İşipek & Oğuz Aydemir - 1770 Çeşme Deniz Savaşı 1768-1774 Osmanlı Rus Savaşları, Denizler Kitabevi, İstanbul 2006.

Поистине великолепное произведение. Он содержит невероятные детали. Но его информация о турецких боевых кораблях частично неверна. Потому что он передал преувеличенную ложь о наших боевых кораблях, рассказанную в российских источниках. Однако наши архивы рассказывают совсем другое.

Отредактированно HILMI (19.03.2022 15:06:43)

#78 19.03.2022 18:24:03

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Re: Османский флот в 1770 г.

HILMI написал:

#1536684
Однако наши архивы рассказывают совсем другое.

That's right. The author (a General?) didn't know the Ottoman (Old Turkish) language, so, he used secondary sources.

#79 19.03.2022 19:10:22

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Re: Османский флот в 1770 г.

Эд написал:

#1536724
That's right. The author (a General?) didn't know the Ottoman (Old Turkish) language, so, he used secondary sources.

Archival research may have been carried out on different dates. Cafer may not have seen the sources I used to describe his fleet. Or the Burc-u Zafer galleon may not have looked at the archive records properly. It could have easily escaped. As a result. This book is not holy. Of course there will be mistakes.

I benefited from both this study and other research. I am writing by giving archive records. I'm not making it up. I am a person who meticulously does the work I put my mind to. Also, this writer works at a university in Cyprus. I tried to reach him but he didn't get back to me. I wanted to talk to him about these resources.

Отредактированно HILMI (09.05.2022 12:58:13)

#80 25.03.2022 21:10:00

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Re: Османский флот в 1770 г.

Archival documents about Cafer Bey Fleet.

"BOA, Cevdet Bahriye 7807 (November 1769)". In the documents, two navy galleons prepared for winter protection in the Mediterranean in the same year are stated as "Gazal-ı Bahri" and "Tuhfetü'l-mulük" under the command of the Rhodes governor. In addition to these, Fesçi Ali Kaptan's galleon and Sakızlı Hüseyin Kaptan's pergende were rented, and these ships were to be accompanied by Cafer Bey's pergende. BOA Cevdet Bahriye 794 (November 1769)

Sorry, I can't upload images.

Отредактированно HILMI (25.03.2022 23:25:52)

#81 27.04.2022 11:58:40

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Re: Османский флот в 1770 г.

4

Недавно опубликованная статья А.А. Лебедева "Хиосское и Чесменское сражения в свете новых данных" содержит сведения, позволяющие по-новому взглянуть на время гибели "Евстафия".
Вот интересующий отрывок:

"...согласно журналам кораблей «Трех Святителей» и «Саратов», не только гибель «Св. Евстафия», но и пожар на
нем начались лишь после взрыва турецкого флагманского корабля.

Журналы кораблей «Не тронь меня», «Европа», «Трех Иерархов» и «Ростислав» рисуют картину несколько иначе. В частности, получается, что сначала загорелся турецкий линейный корабль, затем вспыхнул
«Св. Евстафий» (по данным журнала «Не тронь меня» — посредством упавшей на него мачты), достаточно быстро взлетевший на воздух, и лишь после этого произошел взрыв и турецкого корабля.

Наконец, журнал «Святослава» показывает, что хотя пожар на «Св. Евстафии» начался действительно после возгорания турецкого флагмана, тем не менее, сначала взорвался именно последний, и лишь после этого произошла гибель флагманского корабля Г. А. Спиридова. Причем, в означенном журнале особо подчеркивается прямое воздействие взрыва турецкого корабля на резкое распространение огня по «Св. Евстафию»".

Журналы всех наших кораблей утверждают, что первым загорелся турецкий корабль.

Отмечу, что "Трех Святителей" был БЛИЖАЙШИМ кораблем к "Евстафию".

Отсюда вывод: первым взорвался турецкий флагман, а не "Евстафий". А. Орлов принял версию Грейга, которая с тех пор кочевала по всем нашим историям.

Как говорил Козьма Прутков: "Зри в корень".
.

#82 04.06.2022 02:34:47

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Re: Османский флот в 1770 г.

Здравствуйте. Где можно прочитать новую статью Лебедева о Хиосском и Чесменском сражениях?

#83 06.04.2023 13:00:53

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Re: Османский флот в 1770 г.

1

Turkish Navy Participating in the Battle of Cesme: (My final conclusion after reading all the historical books I could find).

Navy Admiral Squadron:
10 galleons
1 Great Galley "Baştarta"
12 Galleys and Xebec.

Weapons:
Navy Galleons: 590.
Galleys: 39 (3 cannons per galley).
Total: 629 Cannons.

Source: It was written by the historian İsmail Hakkı Uzunçarşılı on page 397 of the 5th volume of Ottoman History.

In this source, 12 galleys and frigates are written. But there were no frigates in the Turkish navy in those years. That's why I wrote Xebec instead of Frigate. Perhaps our Historian might have confused the Frkateyn with the Galley named Frkate.

Personnel: Although it is not known how many personnel are on the ships, it is known that the number of personnel on all ships is low and there are only peacetime personnel on board. There are 4.775 personnel in the 10 galleon navy during the Peace period, which set out on the Mediterranean expedition in 1775. There are probably around 5.000 personnel in Navy Galleons and 1.000 personel in Galleys.

Cafer Bey Fleet
2 Navy Galleons. (Gazal-ı Bahri and Tuhfetü'l Mülk)
1 Merchant Galleon. (Fesci Ali Kaptan)
2 galleys. (Hüseyin Kaptan's galley and Cafer bey's galley)

Weapons: 136 or 150 Cannons.
Personel: 830 or 900

The galleons in Cafer Bey's fleet had 270 personnel in the peace patrol. According to the previously issued edict, the merchant galleon could have between 130 or 200 personnel. Each of the galleys probably had 80 personels.

In the book named "Gazavat-ı Hasan Pasha" and in the archive documents, Cafer Bey's fleet is mentioned as 5 ships. The 2 navy galleons in Cafer Bey's fleet left the fleet the day before the war. They were at sea for a long time, presumably on the Winter Patrol, and may have been sent back to need supply and care. Also, one of these two ships seems to be part of the fleet deployed to the Black Sea. Maybe it was sent back to be sent to the Black Sea.

The total number of ships participating in the battle from these two fleets:

10 Navy Galleons: 590 cannons, 5.000 personel.
1 Merchant Galleon: 30 or 44 cannons, 130 or 200 personnel. (According to the published edict).
1 Great Galley "Baştarta": 3 cannons, 80 personel.
14 Galleys an Xebec.: 42 cannons. (3 war cannons for each galley). 1120 personel. (80 personnel per galley).

TOTAL:
ships: 26.
Personels: 6.400 (Probably available).
Cannons: 665 or 679.

Отредактированно HILMI (06.04.2023 22:04:18)

#84 06.04.2023 22:27:10

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Re: Османский флот в 1770 г.

Welcome, HILMI after long absence. Thank you for your information. Could you specify the details of your data, I mean the names of ships and their armament?

#85 07.04.2023 01:37:50

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Re: Османский флот в 1770 г.

1

Эд написал:

#1573803
Welcome, HILMI after long absence. Thank you for your information. Could you specify the details of your data, I mean the names of ships and their armament?

Thank you. It's good to see you too. Of course.

I did some research to understand this issue better. I found different figures on the presence of the Ottoman navy from different sources. I have written the most plausible and overlapping results above with archival documents.

Numbers of galleons and other ships: Written by historian İsmail Hakkı Uzunçarşılı on page 397 of the 5th volume of Ottoman History.

Source for Cafer Bey's fleet:

1-"Gazavat-i Algerian Gazi Hasan Pasa and Analysis of His Work, page 231"
2-"Winter preservation of the Ottoman State in the Mediterranean. Dr. Şenay Özdemir" Journal of Academic Social Research, Year: 6, Issue: 34, February 2019.

Source for the personnel and cannons in 10 navy galleons:

1-"Galyons in the Ottoman Navy after the Cesme Incident (1770-1789)" Çanakkale Studies Turkish Yearbook Year 2019 issue: 26.
2-"Osmanlı Denizciliği (1700-1770) Yusu Alperen Aydın's doctoral thesis.


Navy Admiral Fleet: Weapons found on ships and their quantities are based on the ammunition list given to the ships....

1-Burcu Zafer (1753). 55 zira, 2x132 okka; 8x44 okka; 18x14 okka; 42x3 okka = 70.
2-Hısnı Bahri (1758). 55.5 zira, 2x132 okka; 2x44 okka; 16x14 okka; 38x7 okka; 12x3 okka = 70.
3-Ziveri Bahri (1752). 55 zira, 8x44 okka; 20x11 okka; 30x7 okka; 12x3 okka = 70.
4-Seyfi Bahrî (1769). 51 zira. 6x44 okka; 20x11 okka; 28x5 okka; 8x3 okka = 62.
5-Pelengi Bahri (1767). 51.5 zira. 6x44 okka; 20x9 okka; 28x5 okka; 8x3 okka = 62.
6-Ukabı Bahrî (1767). 51.5 zira. 6x44 okka; 20x9 okka; 28x5 okka; 8x3 okka = 62.
7-Mukaddemi Seref (1766). 47.5 zira. 2x22 okka; 22x7 okka; 24x5 okka; 6x3 okka = 54.
8-Meskeni Gâzi (1767). 45 zira. 22x5 okka; 24x3 okka; 6x1.5 okka = 52.
9-Semendi Bahrî (1766). 43.5 zira. 22x5 okka; 18x3 okka; 6x1.5 okka = 46.
10-Tılsımı Bahrî (1760). 41.5 zira. 20x5 okka; 16x3 okka; 6x1.5 okka = 42.

Total: 10 galleons, 590 cannons.

The 12 existing galleys include the cannon and personnel list, which I guessed by sampling the galleys sent to the black sea between 1736-1739. The source work of this is the doctoral thesis named "Ottoman Navy in the Black Sea between 1736-1739" by an academician named İsmail Daniş.

In addition, while Idris Bostan describes "Bastarta" in his work "Tersane-i Amire in the 17th Century", he tells that the ship carried 3 large cannons in front and 4 small diameter cannons on its sides.

The cannons given to the galleys sent to the black sea in the war of 1736-1739, which I mentioned above, appear in very different diameters. Each Frigate appears to have been given 300 cannon shells. Perhaps these galleys could contain 2 large and 4 small cannons. Unfortunately, there's no way of knowing how big the cannons on the galleys are.

Cafer Bey's Fleet.

In fact, Cafer Bey's fleet was not prepared against the Russian navy. The purpose of this fleet was to winter guard ships against pirates in the Mediterranean in 1769-1770.

1- Tuhfetü'l-Muluk: 43 Zira, 46 cannons (270 personnel in the presence of Peace) (same as semend-i bahri). its left the navy before the war.
2- Gazâl-ı Bahrî: 42,5 Zira, 46 cannons. (Peace has 270 personnel) (same as semend-i bahri). In fact, this galleon is likely to be larger than a 43.5 zira galleon in capacity. If the capacity is large, 50 cannons can be found. If its have 50 cannons. 22x5 okka; 22x3 okka; 6x1.5 okka = 50 Cannons. its left the navy before the war.
3- Fesci Ali Captain Galleon. (This ship can be 38-45 zira. 30-44 guns and 130-200 personnel).
4- Galley 3 cannon 80 personnel (Huseyin Kaptan Pergendesi).
5- Galley 3 cannon 80 personnel (Cafer Bey Pergendesi).

TOTAL: 3 galleons, 2 galleys. 136 or 150 cannons and 830 or 900 personnel.

Note: In another document dated November 1769, the names of the galleons to be sent to the Mediterranean for winter defense appear as "Gazal-ı Bahri and Nüsret Nüma". Maybe because the "Tuhfet-ül Mülk" galleon is very old, it was not suitable for the expedition and was changed later. The names of the "Gazal-ı Bahri and Nüsret Nüma" galleons are mentioned in the list of galleons sent to the Black Sea. Maybe that's why they left the fleet the day before the battle. Since these 2 galleons did not take part in the war, they are of no importance in terms of our subject.

Merchant galleon weapon and personnel availability is based on the list in Yusuf Alperen Aydın's doctoral thesis, which shows how many personnel and weapons Merchant galleons should have in case of war. The cannons required to be carried by merchant ships varied according to the size of the ships.

38-39 zira: 10x3 okka; 20x1.5 okka = 30. Personnel: 130.
40-41 zira: 6x5 okka; 10x3 okka; 20x1.5 okka = 36. Personnel: 150.
42-43 zira: 10x5 okka; 20x3 okka; 6x1.5 okka = 36. Personnel: 150.
44-45 zira: 20x5 okka; 20x3 okka; 4x1.5 okka = 44. Personnel: 200.

It is written in the beautiful work "Battle of Cesme (1770). Ali Rıza İşipek - Oğuz Aydemi" that the two navy galleons in this fleet left the navy before the war.

In my opinion, the information and examples I have compiled above are the closest estimates to the truth about the Ottoman navy in the Battle of Çeşme. This is the last point that can be reached.

Отредактированно HILMI (07.04.2023 15:38:43)

#86 07.04.2023 12:27:06

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Re: Османский флот в 1770 г.

1

Nice data. Thanks a lot, HILMI.

#87 07.04.2023 12:42:39

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Re: Османский флот в 1770 г.

Эд написал:

#1573849
Nice data. Thanks a lot, HILMI.

Thanks to you too.

I think my 1770 Ottoman expeditionary fleet estimates should be very close to the truth. I hope one day a detailed list will be found from our archives.

#88 07.04.2023 18:09:39

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Re: Османский флот в 1770 г.

HILMI написал:

#1573817
Galley 3 cannon 80 personnel

I think this number includes only soldiers and sailors, not rowers.


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#89 07.04.2023 20:02:44

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Re: Османский флот в 1770 г.

Олег написал:

#1573863
I think this number includes only soldiers and sailors, not rowers.

Now I have looked at Idris Bostan's work called "Tersaney-i Amire in the 17th Century". In a "Firkat", the number of rowers is between 25-32. This means that 32 of the 80 crew members are rowers and the rest are sailors who manage the ship.

https://i.postimg.cc/hG8WgpzB/Yeni-Resim-1.png

Отредактированно HILMI (07.04.2023 20:58:55)

#90 07.04.2023 23:07:05

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Re: Османский флот в 1770 г.

Олег написал:

#1573863
I think this number includes only soldiers and sailors, not rowers

Since I was curious about your question, I researched who the crews of the "Frigate" style ships were. I found a lot of useful information. Thanks for this good question.

I understand your comment as a question. This is a translation error.

The Swallow is one of the smallest ships in the "frigate" class from the "galley", that is, rowing ships, and it is a small warship used in rivers and rivers, especially the Danube, which the Ottomans call the "Thin Navy".[10] Swallow ships have seen more “communication and patrol services”. They were used not only on the Danube, but also on the shores of Egypt. In 1791, there were 100 people in a newly made large swallow.
                   
Other technical features of the swallow ship are as follows. It was the fastest ship in the Mediterranean at its time, with a crew of 100 warriors and crew, and a cannon that could participate in raid operations in the Navy. Its slender form resembles a "flying swallow" above the water, with its oars raised to starboard (right) and port (left) when the single white Latin sail is raised. The crew of a swallow;[11] “ 1 chief, 1 pilot, 2 helmsman, 2 sergeants, 6 sailors, 1 cook, 1 carpenter, 1 caulker, 2 artillerymen, 6 sailors doing various jobs, and 57 sailors both rowing and fighting It has a crew of 80 - 105 people, of which 20 - 25 warriors, who are experts in various weapons, join the boat in raid operations and on the way to wars. “

[10] İdris Bostan, Osmanlılar ve Deniz, s 149-150

[11] Ali Can Ertuğrul, Bir Osmanlı Kadırgası Kırlangıç ile Uçmak, Bir Osmanli  Kadirgasi Kirlangic ile Ucmak.

You can see in the detailed explanation above, Rowers are also included in this 80-person staff.

Отредактированно HILMI (08.04.2023 02:08:03)

#91 08.04.2023 10:38:49

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Re: Османский флот в 1770 г.

1

Thank you. It's new information for me about size of ottoman galleys.


“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.”
Carl Schurz

#92 08.04.2023 11:40:47

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Re: Османский флот в 1770 г.

Олег написал:

#1573923
Thank you. It's new information for me about size of ottoman galleys.

Thank you.

I would like to give a few historical examples of the weapons used on these ships.

The cannons on the "Bastarta-ı Humayun" ship in the navy sent to the Black Sea in 1737:

1x14 Okka cannon. (This weapon used a marble round cannonball.)
2x3 Okka cannon.
2x1.5 Okka cannon. (Probably the small cannon used on the side.).
2x1 Okka cannon. (Probably the small cannon used on the side.).
TOTAL: 3 Heavy cannons and 4 small cannons.

Here is the list of weapons that were put in 60 such ships (Firgate) built in 1700.

According to this list, each ship had 3 heavy cannons and 4 ships had one mortar. Other weapons are various types of firearms used by soldiers.

https://i.postimg.cc/pVFCXHJk/Yeni-Resim-1.png

Отредактированно HILMI (08.04.2023 12:14:44)

#93 08.04.2023 13:55:07

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Re: Османский флот в 1770 г.

The "Standart" Mediterranean's galley ( French, Maltese and so on) has 25-27 banks and 200-300 rowers (from 4 to 5 rowers on one oar). So "Frigate" style galley smaller then russian and swedish galleys at Baltic, and in terms of crew size "frigate" similar to later gunboats. Ottoman navy full of miracles!


“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.”
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#94 08.04.2023 16:11:51

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Re: Османский флот в 1770 г.

Ottoman vessels' complements in 1711 (A.N. Kurat, Prut Seferi ve barisi 1123 (1711), p. 249-250:
Kalyon (liners) 27 about 600 each 16000 total
Bashtarda (large galleys) 22 150 each 3300 total Without hiurma (rowers)?
Kalite (standard galley, galiot) 30 220 each 6600 total (4 guns) incl. rowers?
Firkata (half-galley, furkata) 60 80 each 4800 total (2 guns, 4 swivels)
Kanchabash 120 30 each 3600 total
Volik 100 7 each 700 total
Grand total - 359 vessels 35000 men

#95 08.04.2023 16:48:45

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Re: Османский флот в 1770 г.

Олег написал:

#1573946
The "Standart" Mediterranean's galley ( French, Maltese and so on) has 25-27 banks and 200-300 rowers (from 4 to 5 rowers on one oar). So "Frigate" style galley smaller then russian and swedish galleys at Baltic, and in terms of crew size "frigate" similar to later gunboats. Ottoman navy full of miracles!

Rowing Frigates seem to have the same function as today's coast guard boats. The big galleys you are talking about are warships that we know.

#96 08.04.2023 16:59:02

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Re: Османский флот в 1770 г.

2

Эд написал:

#1573965
Ottoman vessels' complements in 1711 (A.N. Kurat, Prut Seferi ve barisi 1123 (1711), p. 249-250:
Kalyon (liners) 27 about 600 each 16000 total
Bashtarda (large galleys) 22 150 each 3300 total Without hiurma (rowers)?
Kalite (standard galley, galiot) 30 220 each 6600 total (4 guns) incl. rowers?
Firkata (half-galley, furkata) 60 80 each 4800 total (2 guns, 4 swivels)
Kanchabash 120 30 each 3600 total
Volik 100 7 each 700 total
Grand total - 359 vessels 35000 men

According to archival documents, there are 30 galleons prepared for the expedition in 1711. 5 of these galleons were commissioned in the Mediterranean. Of the remaining 25 galleons, 21 were sent to the Azov expedition, and 4 were sent to the Özü Fortress. The total number of assigned soldiers in these 30 galleons is 12,635.

https://i.postimg.cc/zXsZVgnS/Yeni-Resim.png

#97 08.04.2023 17:28:09

HILMI
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Re: Османский флот в 1770 г.

1

As galleons became important in the early 18th century, production of Bastarta for the navy was discontinued after the 1711 campaign. In later expeditions, the frigate of one of the state officials began to be symbolically named as "Baştarta". While the navy admiral was going to war, he got on this symbolic frigate and left Istanbul and then went to his own galleon.

#98 12.04.2023 10:01:47

HILMI
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Re: Османский флот в 1770 г.

Эд написал:

#1573965
Ottoman vessels' complements in 1711 (A.N. Kurat, Prut Seferi ve barisi 1123 (1711), p. 249-250:
Kalyon (liners) 27 about 600 each 16000 total
Bashtarda (large galleys) 22 150 each 3300 total Without hiurma (rowers)?
Kalite (standard galley, galiot) 30 220 each 6600 total (4 guns) incl. rowers?
Firkata (half-galley, furkata) 60 80 each 4800 total (2 guns, 4 swivels)
Kanchabash 120 30 each 3600 total
Volik 100 7 each 700 total
Grand total - 359 vessels 35000 men

I think the reports of foreign ambassadors are more reliable than the data provided by our historians who lived in that period and recorded the events.

The report of the Polish ambassador about the Ottoman Navy on page 250 of the same work:

https://i.postimg.cc/BnBH2pWH/Yeni-Resim.png

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